Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Gnemo on December 18, 2007, 08:23:25 am
This brings back memories of how me and Teg had LK vs. Pally duels.
I think Gene once told me try and outdamage the heals of a paladin with strong DPS. It's truly hard to beat top-tier Paladins because they are such a powerfully defensive class and force you to armour switch so much (try using GR only to beat a top-tier pally) however as mentioned by Teggit himself, using an Ice Pick or Acid Demonstration (which goes through Defender!) can quickly whittle down even the hardest and toughest of them all.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Sapphirion on December 18, 2007, 09:45:39 am
a quick way to beat us is by using AD, but still depends on how good the paladin is :P
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Trial on December 18, 2007, 09:50:40 am
it depends on the paladin but like people just sayd AD,ice pick,even WB by a prof or a HW with magic crash and CB...-.-' ..
it depends on the enemy..and it depends on the paladin..
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Kai Tsuyosa on December 18, 2007, 10:01:46 am
Oooooh Its Leaaaague :O Help me league my Paladin got hijack haxed @_@;; But yah another way to beat us pallies is well... you can be a nub like certain people *cough* not naming any names >.>;;; but I used to fight champs in public that did the asura,ygg berry, asura thing and that worked for them >.>;; *until i busted out the water OL* >.>;;; Iono about prof waterball killing pallies unless the pally has no gtb or maya. A lot of profs used to get mad at me when they stripped me and I used gospel.... They would scream out hax or something which was kinda childish but funny all the same when they died. Gospel kills strip so that doesnt go very far. Maybe a stalker with full strip would be able to kill a pally because those were pretty hard to kill since spamming gospel and proceeding to try and gear yourself back up fully while fighting them back was a pain. Good sin x's with high dammage sb can take down a pally pretty well unless the paladin uses tao gunka then switch to GR and Poison armor effectively. Paladins are mostly just giant tanks meant to outlast their opponents :/ Any good bio with a djinn or w/o should be able to take down a normal pally easily.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Aozora on December 18, 2007, 10:39:05 am
WB on a Pally o.O... Wind armor > WB
It's really not that hard to beat a Pally with a Prof if you know what you're doing ._.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Cherry 14 on December 18, 2007, 02:35:28 pm
I rember fighting over this with some ppl that played on the server but left at the server switch lol they were palidens at the time BeanDip ANd Wea1224 i think been a while tho they said they got killed most of the time due to ice pick but they found out how to win later on i miss those fights with them ;D
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: ~Axle~ on December 18, 2007, 02:47:04 pm
I've beaten quite a few Paladins on my Scholar. The Avalibility of GJ, and everyone using it makes it harder for the Scholar. However with a Hide Clip, You shouldn't have any problems controlling the SP.
The only problem with killing them, Is that status armor is fairly uneffective, Thanks to almost every single one running High VIT. Also it depends on the Paladin you're facing.
I've come up against some who aren't quite prepaired for PvP, and go in without a Phree Weapon. (on my Stalker) In that case, the stalker has a bit higher chance. (note: I had over 300 flee) Strip and Strafe works fairly well.
However most of the time, due to heal, and the huge HP of a Paladin, Most classes will have a hard time killing them.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Legault. on December 18, 2007, 02:47:39 pm
Ice Wall FTW :P
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: ~Axle~ on December 18, 2007, 02:49:23 pm
Icewall is lame. You basically lag the other person to Death D;
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Cherry 14 on December 18, 2007, 02:53:56 pm
lol hes right you could try the old move every mage nows lol
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Legault. on December 18, 2007, 02:55:20 pm
The question was "What can beat them?". So I guess Ice Wall counts :P
But seriously. Top Tier Paladin vs. High Wizard, is kinda impossible for the High Wizard. They can have over 118 mdef, and use elemental reduction, and your magic crasher will do phatetic damage because they have good def. And they can Pressure you. And outheal any damage /wah
So a good way to avoid pressure is to use Ice Wall on yourself. Also you can Ice Wall him to don't let him move, and then use a combination of Fire Pillar and Storm Gust, and maybe Mail Breaker x_x
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Aozora on December 18, 2007, 03:32:47 pm
Which is why I love beating Pallies with my Prof =D
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Legault. on December 18, 2007, 03:36:40 pm
I don't think a Proffesor can beat a top tier Paladin o.O
They can outheal any damage the proffesor does, even without the shield. And they can just put back the shield again with Gospel :P
Well, only if it's a non-Grape Juice's duel xP
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Aozora on December 18, 2007, 03:45:58 pm
Really, you can :3 Profs can counter jsut about anything a Pally can throw at him and LP pwns gospel.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: ~Axle~ on December 18, 2007, 03:59:07 pm
With a Tome and a good build, You can achieve about 900-1K crits@ 190 Attackspeed. Couple that with your Autocastbolts, endow, and "other" elemental Spamming, And you should be able to kill him/her. Not to mention, Yeah - LP, Burn, and Soul Exchange.
WOF Also Gives resistance from Boomer, and chain damage, And will make Shield Charge miss quite often.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: shane3x on December 18, 2007, 05:58:39 pm
All I see is Aozora e-peen flexing throughout this whole thread, lol.
Yeah I know :3 I love my e-peen =D
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Xennith on December 19, 2007, 12:38:05 am
Outdamaging Paladin healing with DPS isn't that hard. Outdamaging Paladin healing with burst isn't that hard, either, really. They key is, can you do it while keeping them from staying out of your effective range when they're trying to do so and prevent them from getting hits in on you at the same time?
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Elements on December 19, 2007, 01:12:46 am
With a Tome and a good build, You can achieve about 900-1K crits@ 190 Attackspeed.
Perhaps on a poorly geared player; But with Lexy's old DDT Tome, she would hit my HP 100's; Using endows (Angeling on me) And Autocast, with dual megs.
Prof DPS melee will ALWAYS be pathetic and low, top tier.
I don't think there's any top tier Paladin's out there; And by that, I mean top-top tier.
Yeap, I know. That's why I said that I think a Proffesor can't beat a Top Tier Paladin.
I think the only Paladin's I consider as Top-Top-Tier are: Man Of Emperium, Tresher and Gene. [I never dueled Gene though x.x]
But I think the 3 of them are like kinda inactive at PvP. [ I don't know now, I haven't been online for a long time]
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Aozora on December 19, 2007, 04:32:21 pm
Well there aren't really any top tier Profs either =/ There was a discussion about this in the Pally thread a while back, I'm just way too lazy to search for it.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Messiahic Murder on December 19, 2007, 05:26:48 pm
Really, you can :3 Profs can counter jsut about anything a Pally can throw at him and LP pwns gospel.
Waaaaaaait?
Land Protector stops gospel >_>?
FUUUUUCCCCKKKKKK.
Anywho.
I still doubt you could out damage the pally.
Since they can just move out straight away.
Slieps + Peco = fast.
Then they gospel for a second.
Then they just grind your damage/HP down.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Aozora on December 19, 2007, 05:36:26 pm
Besides you don't actually even need to strip the pally unless he switches on a GTB. And if he uses GTB he'll lose IC and his main source of damage, which pretty much reduces his webbed damage output to pure Pressure spam which will miss 75% of the time thanks to fog.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Pasis on December 19, 2007, 05:38:32 pm
What can beat them?
Hmm. I have no PvP knowledge, but I believe that a server crash, server wipeout, disconnection, GM hax, or computer glitch could ultimately beat them.
Not so sure on the fourth one, though. ._.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Messiahic Murder on December 19, 2007, 05:58:29 pm
Besides you don't actually even need to strip the pally unless he switches on a GTB. And if he uses GTB he'll lose IC and his main source of damage, which pretty much reduces his webbed damage output to pure Pressure spam which will miss 75% of the time thanks to fog.
Are you serious?...
A very very well gear'd pally can just throw on Mdef stuff and you'll either get "misses" or "1's" coming off.
This still lets them heal and such.
(P.S. I'm talking about someone with Maya Aegis)
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: ~Axle~ on December 19, 2007, 06:08:24 pm
With Mdef Gear on, The Paladin will no doubt be taking more damage from Melee attacks. Normally, As elements said; The Scholar would be doing crappy damage with its DPS, However with Mdef gears on, your reduction goes slightly down the drain. Say goodbye to Raydric, Toad/Thara, and say "Hello" To Quite a bit higher Crits.
Highpreists Can usually beat them as well, If you count Forcing the person out of PvP A win.
Also - I don't know one Top Paladin who uses a Stat into Peco Riding. Seriously. Regardless though - web effectively counters that.
Its quite possible to beat a Top Paladin with a Scholar, if you know what you're doing.
Edit: Remember, No one said the Scholar would always Win. Only that its entirely possible to win in a Top teir Duel.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Messiahic Murder on December 19, 2007, 06:12:38 pm
All of them ride Peco ._.
Anyway...
They have 15% reflect.
They can heal this off.
You can't.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: ~Axle~ on December 19, 2007, 06:29:45 pm
Thats a no brainer, isn't it?
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Legault. on December 20, 2007, 12:04:17 am
BS. It's as viable of a tool as anything else is. 6 skill points to have mobility advantage over any other non-Lord Knight job in the game? Count me in.
If you know how to use movement and positioning to your advantage, Mounted is a boon unlike any other, and only a fool would fail to see that.
And why does everyone think that Heal is this "Magic Button" for instantly mitigating so many damage types? ITT: People who have never actually fought a fully geared opponent.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Aozora on December 20, 2007, 04:46:51 am
So how much INT does a top tier Paladin spec anyways? I'm pretty sure Pally heal isn't as uber a Priest heal. Considering that you'll be bashed with 190 ASPD crits coupled with auto casted bolts and if this is a top tier the Prof is megged as well for melee damage. It really doesn't work like "Hay I heal jur damg off!11 HHAHAHAHAAA" As Gene said it doesn't work like a magic button to get rid of all damage there is.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Messiahic Murder on December 20, 2007, 04:54:07 am
So how much INT does a top tier Paladin spec anyways? I'm pretty sure Pally heal isn't as uber a Priest heal. Considering that you'll be bashed with 190 ASPD crits coupled with auto casted bolts and if this is a top tier the Prof is megged as well for melee damage. It really doesn't work like "Hay I heal jur damg off!11 HHAHAHAHAAA" As Gene said it doesn't work like a magic button to get rid of all damage there is.
A pally will have around twice your health.
With 15% reflect.
Say you have 14k HP.(They have 28k)
You will have to do 28k damage (if they don't heal to kill them)
That's 4.2k reflect.
Most pallys heal in access of 2k. (2k between friends)
You hit around 700 average (Crit x2 and non-crit average)
They can heal 3 out of 4 of your hits with ease...
So.. (28k/4)*3= They'll heal off 21k damage each 28k you do.
So you have to hit them for 4 times as long to kill them.
In that time (4.2k*4)=16.8k of reflect.
You think you can beat that even if they don't attack you?
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Aozora on December 20, 2007, 05:27:53 am
Oh for crying out loud -_-
Alright let's see. Strip > Aegis reflect. You can't gospel thanks to LP, if you run around you won't heal and I can web you once you get out of my LP and continue to bolt bash you since Aegis only reflects melee damage. If you're on MDEF build I'm guessing you don't have a maya aegis.
Every single buff a Paladin has can be dispelled by a sage skill called Dispell. Defender, Auto guard, Shield reflect, all those are gone once I dispell you.
So you reflect my melee damage with your Aegis that is stripped. If I'm gonna melee you anyways why the hell would I let you keep your shield? If you ever plan on meleeing a Pally you should strip them thus they lose their 15% reflect. If you run away on your Peco I can use bolts that don't get reflected anyways. Web and your damage will be reduced to Pressure spam which will miss 75% of the time since I can just sit in my fog and keep the WB/LB/FB spamming up coupled with soul burn so that you use up your GJ supply.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: samba on December 22, 2007, 01:58:58 am
Alright let's see. Strip > Aegis reflect. You can't gospel thanks to LP, if you run around you won't heal and I can web you once you get out of my LP and continue to bolt bash you since Aegis only reflects melee damage. If you're on MDEF build I'm guessing you don't have a maya aegis.
Every single buff a Paladin has can be dispelled by a sage skill called Dispell. Defender, Auto guard, Shield reflect, all those are gone once I dispell you.
So you reflect my melee damage with your Aegis that is stripped. If I'm gonna melee you anyways why the hell would I let you keep your shield? If you ever plan on meleeing a Pally you should strip them thus they lose their 15% reflect. If you run away on your Peco I can use bolts that don't get reflected anyways. Web and your damage will be reduced to Pressure spam which will miss 75% of the time since I can just sit in my fog and keep the WB/LB/FB spamming up coupled with soul burn so that you use up your GJ supply.
Sounds like pretty good plan to wack a pally. We discussed about that on other thread. I am still a bit lazy and busy to lvl the rollback pally yet. But you can't always dispell even I dont use gtb (O, yeah we are talking about full geared Pally.) And you can't always stop me using pressure, IC isn't really needed. Can just run a phen + berz (this isn't that slow if some dex is put, dont have to be a lot too. Since LP is on, FOW and Safty dont work as well, right? The mobility of peco pally is much faster than professor's, which allows pally to chase a professor and holycross or bash. Not sure about the HP of your professor, but swordie with a peco actually hurt ppl pretty bad with spear. Of course, above are only gossips until you see my little 99 high novice turns into a sexy pally.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Aozora on December 22, 2007, 06:04:52 am
As long as you don't have a GTB on I can always dispell you, and if you put a GTB on you lose more then you gain. Without Aegis there's no IC, your offensive power will be reduced a lot. And spell breaker goes through Phen and GTB. And yeah I can't fog when I have LP up, but I would only have LP up if I was meleeing you. Also there's always the option of just swapping LP into a different area spell. As for chasing, Web > Chasing and SW > HC and bash.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Man Of Emperium on December 22, 2007, 07:23:11 am
A good Paladin is going to stack Mdef and use Angeling or an elemental armor. If you melee, the Paladin Holy Crosses or swaps to a Status armor. If you don't, he tanks your damage with Heal while whittling you down with Pressure, assuming you get a successful Strip on him in the first place and he doesn't have the presence of mind to take off his shield.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Aozora on December 22, 2007, 08:46:00 am
There's Safety wall against holy cross and bash. And if you don't wear a GTB I can just sit in my fog and keep draining your SP until you run out of GJ's on which case you'll be screwed. The point is that if you don't wear a GTB a Prof can have a total control over the SP usage of the battle thanks to soul burn and soul change. Without SP a Paladin is screwed.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Man Of Emperium on December 22, 2007, 10:11:42 am
Chances are you'll run out of Hp before I run out of Sp if you just WoF sit. It's quite simple to grape once every time I get Soul Burned just to keep enough SP to use a skill or two.
I would expect good Profs to Melee with Autocast while Bolting + Waterballing. This will only hurt me significantly if I don't have a shield on. Land Protector blocks your ability to Web me as well, meaning I'll be able to get a Gospel off. I'm willing to bet that it's easier for me to whittle down your Hp than it is for you to constantly keep me stripped.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: samba on December 22, 2007, 11:12:11 am
As long as you don't have a GTB on I can always dispell you, and if you put a GTB on you lose more then you gain. Without Aegis there's no IC, your offensive power will be reduced a lot. And spell breaker goes through Phen and GTB. And yeah I can't fog when I have LP up, but I would only have LP up if I was meleeing you. Also there's always the option of just swapping LP into a different area spell. As for chasing, Web > Chasing and SW > HC and bash.
That is not true, unless the server is buggie. Dispell is preventable. Also, safty wall does not save you, if pally is moviable, i can just go in and gospel next to you or use status effect weapons to cost damage.
There's Safety wall against holy cross and bash. And if you don't wear a GTB I can just sit in my fog and keep draining your SP until you run out of GJ's on which case you'll be screwed. The point is that if you don't wear a GTB a Prof can have a total control over the SP usage of the battle thanks to soul burn and soul change. Without SP a Paladin is screwed.
Now in practical point of view, pally should be able to carry about 500 gj. If you come to strip, that means you have to be close to a pally. That means, probably a safty wall + FOW walk after trapping pally with spider web. At a distance, pally use shield skill to carry damaging effects. At close range where you can apply strip; Gospel would take in to the place. Using LP always means you are freeing pally from spider traps and disable your safty as well as water ball and FOW. If you want to melee, that is totally a lose, there is high chance your HP wont last with meleeing a pally without safty wall.
--- It is really hard to fight a skilled professor who actually good on fighting pally, because of mobility limitation and range protection. But it does not mean pallies are just like dead meats. On this server, probably it would end up a draw if the pally utilize gears and his skill. One way to clear the myst, that is to duel a skilled pally who actually knows what he is doing on fighting professor. It would be fun and i am looking forward to.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Aozora on December 22, 2007, 11:26:05 am
As long as you don't have a GTB on I can always dispell you, and if you put a GTB on you lose more then you gain. Without Aegis there's no IC, your offensive power will be reduced a lot. And spell breaker goes through Phen and GTB. And yeah I can't fog when I have LP up, but I would only have LP up if I was meleeing you. Also there's always the option of just swapping LP into a different area spell. As for chasing, Web > Chasing and SW > HC and bash.
That is not true, unless the server is buggie. Dispell is preventable.
So how do you prevent from being dispelled then?
Oh and MoE I really doubt I'd run out of HP beofre you run out SP mainly because I'd be carrying a vitata clip around and the only real way to damage me would be with pressure or shield boomerang. Both miss 75% of the time and SB deals only 25% of it's original damage. A top tier prof can beat a top tier pally, seriously. We can keep on doing theory fighting till the end of the world but in reality either one will make a mistake eventually which will prove to be fatal. The thread was about who could beat a top tier pally, the reason I even got in to theory fighting because people don't seem to belive that it is even possible -_-
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: samba on December 22, 2007, 11:30:09 am
As long as you don't have a GTB on I can always dispell you, and if you put a GTB on you lose more then you gain. Without Aegis there's no IC, your offensive power will be reduced a lot. And spell breaker goes through Phen and GTB. And yeah I can't fog when I have LP up, but I would only have LP up if I was meleeing you. Also there's always the option of just swapping LP into a different area spell. As for chasing, Web > Chasing and SW > HC and bash.
That is not true, unless the server is buggie. Dispell is preventable.
So how do you prevent from being dispelled then?
Oh and MoE I really doubt I'd run out of HP beofre you run out SP mainly because I'd be carrying a vitata clip around and the only real way to damage me would be with pressure or shield boomerang. Both miss 75% of the time and SB deals only 25% of it's original damage. A top tier prof can beat a top tier pally, seriously. We can keep on doing theory fighting till the end of the world but in reality either one will make a mistake eventually which will prove to be fatal. The thread was about who could beat a top tier pally, the reason I even got in to theory fighting because people don't seem to belive that it is even possible -_-
How about an assignment to look up on the datebase? =3 I meant like i did so much research on it, it would be a respect to me if you always spend some time to look up right?
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Legault. on December 22, 2007, 11:38:45 am
Oh and MoE I really doubt I'd run out of HP beofre you run out SP mainly because I'd be carrying a vitata clip around and the only real way to damage me would be with pressure or shield boomerang. Both miss 75% of the time and SB deals only 25% of it's original damage. A top tier prof can beat a top tier pally, seriously. We can keep on doing theory fighting till the end of the world but in reality either one will make a mistake eventually which will prove to be fatal. The thread was about who could beat a top tier pally, the reason I even got in to theory fighting because people don't seem to belive that it is even possible -_-
I'm pretty sure it's impossible for a Proffesor to beat a Paladin, Top Tier talking x.x
Buuut. . .I guess we will have to wait until a Top Tier Proffesor appear's. Because right now, I think there's none.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Aozora on December 22, 2007, 12:19:25 pm
That is not true, unless the server is buggie. Dispell is preventable. Also, safty wall does not save you, if pally is moviable, i can just go in and gospel next to you or use status effect weapons to cost damage.
Why would I let you move if it only hurts me? I can just keep you webbed o.o;
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Now in practical point of view, pally should be able to carry about 500 gj. If you come to strip, that means you have to be close to a pally. That means, probably a safty wall + FOW walk after trapping pally with spider web. At a distance, pally use shield skill to carry damaging effects. At close range where you can apply strip; Gospel would take in to the place. Using LP always means you are freeing pally from spider traps and disable your safty as well as water ball and FOW. If you want to melee, that is totally a lose, there is high chance your HP wont last with meleeing a pally without safty wall.
500 GJ isn't that much really if you have to use it to replenish 1k+ SP every few seconds. I don't need to strip unless you wear GTB. Yes using LP means that I disable my own protection as well, but I can always just as well cancel my LP and get my protection back up. Web you and move away from gospels range. And really, dual megged Prof with a good crit build and auto spell is very capable of meleeing a Pally. Gene said it hismelf, out damaging a Pally's heal is not as hard as some people think.
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How about an assignment to look up on the datebase? =3 I meant like i did so much research on it, it would be a respect to me if you always spend some time to look up right?
I'm pretty sure I know how disepll works, there are few ways to stop it, unless you have it maxed then high MDEF will help you to prevent it since, at level 5 the chance is 100%. Soul linked Stalker/Rogues can't be dispelled either. Or the final way would be to wear GTB. I've yet to encounter any other way to prevent dispelling.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Man Of Emperium on December 22, 2007, 07:57:36 pm
If the Professor's strategy is to run across the map and Heal Clip, it's true that there's not much a Paladin can do about that, just like there's nothing I can really do against a Champ that keeps Body Relocating away every time he takes damage. Just remember that while you Heal Clip for Level 1, I'm doing Level 10s. The longer the duel gets drawn out, the more likely you won't be able to out Heal the Paladin's damage because you'll get hit with Quad Marina and the like. Even if I miss 75% of the time, your Heal Clip probably won't even tank my Pressure, since the skill delay is reduced by a miss. I'm not saying it's impossible, but the Paladin would have to make a mistake or have un-equal gears in order to lose. Which Paladins have you beaten on your Professor with this strategy by the way?
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Aozora on December 22, 2007, 08:00:27 pm
If the Professor's strategy is to run across the map and Heal Clip, it's true that there's not much a Paladin can do about that, just like there's nothing I can really do against a Champ that keeps Body Relocating away every time he takes damage. Just remember that while you Heal Clip for Level 1, I'm doing Level 10s. The longer the duel gets drawn out, the more likely you won't be able to out Heal the Paladin's damage because you'll get hit with Quad Marina and the like. Even if I miss 75% of the time, your Heal Clip probably won't even tank my Pressure, since the skill delay is reduced by a miss. I'm not saying it's impossible, but the Paladin would have to make a mistake or have un-equal gears in order to lose. Which Paladins have you beaten on your Professor with this strategy by the way?
The longer the duel lasts the more likely the Paladin is to run out of GJ's and thus run out of SP. Unless you of course put on a GTB on which case you jsut give me a good reasonto stand there and spell break your pressure or get close and strip.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Man Of Emperium on December 22, 2007, 08:10:39 pm
Using "you will run out of Grape Juice first" as the only strategy of beating a Paladin doesn't give me confidence in the Prof's side of the matchup. Like I said before, a Paladin keeping SP low and Graping once or twice instead of spamming to full SP means that's not going to be a very viable strategy.
Which Paladins have you beaten on your Professor with this strategy by the way? I'm curious about whether this strategy was effective against some Paladins I know.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Aozora on December 22, 2007, 08:38:22 pm
Using "you will run out of Grape Juice first" as the only strategy of beating a Paladin doesn't give me confidence in the Prof's side of the matchup. Like I said before, a Paladin keeping SP low and Graping once or twice instead of spamming to full SP means that's not going to be a very viable strategy.
Which Paladins have you beaten on your Professor with this strategy by the way? I'm curious about whether this strategy was effective against some Paladins I know.
The point is not to make you run out of SP, the point is to control the SP consumption of the battle. Seeing as with low SP you will find a lot harder to spam heal for example if I decide to start spamming attacks. Nor can you spam attacks efficiently by keeping your SP low instead of having it up high. It's not the only way to win, but controlling the SP flow of the battle is vital for a Prof when fighting anyone not using a GTB. Since if your SP is low you can't do both offensive, defensive and recovery skills at the same time. While I can keep on pushing with the offensive and disabling moves making it harder and harder for you to actually find a chance to pull of and efficient counter attack.
As for who I've beaten, I quit on this server a long time back, even when I played I mainly focused on WoE since I don't particulary enjoy PvP =/
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: samba on December 23, 2007, 02:41:41 pm
That is not true, unless the server is buggie. Dispell is preventable. Also, safty wall does not save you, if pally is moviable, i can just go in and gospel next to you or use status effect weapons to cost damage.
Why would I let you move if it only hurts me? I can just keep you webbed o.o;
Well, if you read what I was saying, that would be the condition you use LP. Under LP, yes, the pally couldn't use gospel, but also you lose safty wall as well as spider web to limit the movement of a pally. (For details, read my post earlier.)
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Now in practical point of view, pally should be able to carry about 500 gj. If you come to strip, that means you have to be close to a pally. That means, probably a safty wall + FOW walk after trapping pally with spider web. At a distance, pally use shield skill to carry damaging effects. At close range where you can apply strip; Gospel would take in to the place. Using LP always means you are freeing pally from spider traps and disable your safty as well as water ball and FOW. If you want to melee, that is totally a lose, there is high chance your HP wont last with meleeing a pally without safty wall.
500 GJ isn't that much really if you have to use it to replenish 1k+ SP every few seconds. I don't need to strip unless you wear GTB. Yes using LP means that I disable my own protection as well, but I can always just as well cancel my LP and get my protection back up. Web you and move away from gospels range. And really, dual megged Prof with a good crit build and auto spell is very capable of meleeing a Pally. Gene said it hismelf, out damaging a Pally's heal is not as hard as some people think.
500 gj isnt much, really. But should be enough to get the job done. What is the point of keeping excessive materials? Also, Pally use gj on demand when we needed. So the sp line probably only good enough for a pally to use skill. There is not much points for letting a profess to burn up sp.
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How about an assignment to look up on the datebase? =3 I meant like i did so much research on it, it would be a respect to me if you always spend some time to look up right?
I'm pretty sure I know how disepll works, there are few ways to stop it, unless you have it maxed then high MDEF will help you to prevent it since, at level 5 the chance is 100%. Soul linked Stalker/Rogues can't be dispelled either. Or the final way would be to wear GTB. I've yet to encounter any other way to prevent dispelling.
Then, i tell you there is at least one way to prevent dispell. It was my courtesy to say at that way; we all know the matter of whether you want to find out or not that isn't my responsibility.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Aozora on December 23, 2007, 02:54:58 pm
No seriously, I've looked through multiple database sites, including ROempire, iROwiki, RMS and ROcards, I've played a SCholar since I started over a year ago and I've yet to encounter anyone who could prevent dispellng with any method that I did not already mention. If there really is some way that no one but you actually knows then please do enlighten us o.o
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: samba on December 23, 2007, 02:56:03 pm
No seriously, I've looked through multiple database sites, including ROempire, iROwiki, RMS and ROcards, I've played a SCholar since I started over a year ago and I've yet to encounter anyone who could prevent dispellng with any method that I did not already mention. If there really is some way that no one but you actually knows then please do enlighten us o.o
Sure, the humble hobbyist of this addicting game. You may want to look up on headgear description.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Aozora on December 23, 2007, 03:10:53 pm
No seriously, I've looked through multiple database sites, including ROempire, iROwiki, RMS and ROcards, I've played a SCholar since I started over a year ago and I've yet to encounter anyone who could prevent dispellng with any method that I did not already mention. If there really is some way that no one but you actually knows then please do enlighten us o.o
Sure, humble hobbyist of this addicting game. You may want to look up on headgear description.
Swapping gears won't work, the Prof will be IC anyways so you won't have time to swap headgears in order to prevent dispell. Besides swapping away anything except your lower headgear will make you lose your IC and in case of upper headgears it will make you lose considerably more then you gain. Paladin needs two DI's to reach IC, swapping off either one of those will make you lose your IC pressure and make you vulnerable for spell breaking.
Also please note that I'm not trying to say that this duel is an auto win for the Prof, all I'm saying is that a top tier Prof can beat a top tier Paladin.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: samba on December 23, 2007, 06:20:30 pm
No seriously, I've looked through multiple database sites, including ROempire, iROwiki, RMS and ROcards, I've played a SCholar since I started over a year ago and I've yet to encounter anyone who could prevent dispellng with any method that I did not already mention. If there really is some way that no one but you actually knows then please do enlighten us o.o
Sure, humble hobbyist of this addicting game. You may want to look up on headgear description.
Swapping gears won't work, the Prof will be IC anyways so you won't have time to swap headgears in order to prevent dispell. Besides swapping away anything except your lower headgear will make you lose your IC and in case of upper headgears it will make you lose considerably more then you gain. Paladin needs two DI's to reach IC, swapping off either one of those will make you lose your IC pressure and make you vulnerable for spell breaking.
Also please note that I'm not trying to say that this duel is an auto win for the Prof, all I'm saying is that a top tier Prof can beat a top tier Paladin.
I assume you found what i was saying. :) I would never say Pally is sure win. Like i mentioned, it would be usually ending up as a draw since both side has strength as well as weakness.
As much as i played. I found IC is nice but it isn't essential for pally|sader's gameplay vs scholar. I personally think and practice swap stuffs very frequent. Swapping gears to achieve a more effective gameplay that is what makes pally|sader strong. Pally|sader are not suppose to be "/nc players", or some 1 or 2 skills spammers, pally| sader play smart to win. It isn't that easy to outlast your enemy; every step requires some thinking and planning with 20 shortcuts managing over 20 gears and skills. But to think about that it really makes top tier gamers standing out from the crowd. Anyone if they work hard, they should be able to get gears, but not all well geared people are top class of gamer.
** For ic, use CTM + DI + DL + Berz + berz to avoid 2 DI side effect. Pressure is nice, but it isn't only skill.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Aozora on December 23, 2007, 08:16:45 pm
I know that Pallies aren't jsut one skill wonders, but what the point is that if I web you, your whole offensive potential will be reduced to one single skill, Pressure. Shield boomerang does not do any sort of considerable damage if I'm wearing reduction gears, freezing will be hard since as an INT based class my MDEF will usually be quite high so freezing will be rare occasion that doesn't last long. If I web you, and put on a fog. You can't shield chain, you can't HC, you can't bash, you can't switch armors to mitigate everything since I can attack you using multiple elements at the same time. In this situation all you can do to hurt me is use pressure.
I'm fully aware of how diverse Paladins can be and how many skills they have in their disposal, but if you prevent them from using all those other skills in any way that would actually help them to defeat their opponent, then even Paladins are reduced to one skill wonders.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Man Of Emperium on December 24, 2007, 12:02:27 am
Addressing the post on the previous page, I don't believe that a skill like Soul Burn with a 15 second downtime between the next cast will help you dictate the SP flow of a battle significantly.
Also, your INT doesn't play a large part in your Freeze resistance, if even at all - the main factor is your base Mdef.
In order to reduce the Paladin's entire arsenal to Pressure, you'll have to address a wide variety of skills by executing WoF + Web + Safety Wall. Not allowing Web to run out means refreshing it every 4 seconds or so that it lasts, and that means you'll lose out on a lot of your offensive ability since there's definitely going to be an issue with after-cast delay. The Paladin can hide clip to delay you further by forcing you to sight. On top of that, you'll have to deal with any status effects the Paladin throws your way, whether via weapon or armor. Plus, there's always the chance that the Paladin will take the duel seriously and specialize a particular build, possibly even skilling GC.
I agree that a top tier Prof can beat a top tier Paladin. However, I believe the matchup is biased towards the Paladin.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: .:.Cloud.:. on December 24, 2007, 01:34:08 pm
Hmm, i think everyjob can kill a pally, but it all depends on the equips of both, hmm, i think a Prof hass the advantagf on a paladin, but then again, it depends on his equips, if he as a GTB, well, i think u all know who will win, but, i am a lil bored with Pallys, so thats why i am changing to Pally to Wizz, i am sellin all of my pally equips, u can go to my shop, its in my sig... ;D
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Cherry 14 on December 25, 2007, 12:05:22 am
Umm why do we care just to hate the palidens sigh no other class has one this big
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: VanDikov on December 25, 2007, 01:41:48 am
With a Tome and a good build, You can achieve about 900-1K crits@ 190 Attackspeed.
Perhaps on a poorly geared player; But with Lexy's old DDT Tome, she would hit my HP 100's; Using endows (Angeling on me) And Autocast, with dual megs.
Prof DPS melee will ALWAYS be pathetic and low, top tier.
I don't think a Proffesor can beat a top tier Paladin o.O
I don't think there's any top tier Paladin's out there; And by that, I mean top-top tier.
I sure hope you're not talking about me. I don't have a DDT dome (I have a DDDrake), I only have 1 meg, I never seriously went into autocast (low job level for my prof), and I never seriously made a good stat build for melee. I don't recall using endows, either. Too lazy to hunt for whatever is needed. I don't know of any other well-geared people who go with that name, but ignore this post if there's another one running around.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: samba on December 25, 2007, 10:13:55 am
I know that Pallies aren't jsut one skill wonders, but what the point is that if I web you, your whole offensive potential will be reduced to one single skill, Pressure. Shield boomerang does not do any sort of considerable damage if I'm wearing reduction gears, freezing will be hard since as an INT based class my MDEF will usually be quite high so freezing will be rare occasion that doesn't last long. If I web you, and put on a fog. You can't shield chain, you can't HC, you can't bash, you can't switch armors to mitigate everything since I can attack you using multiple elements at the same time. In this situation all you can do to hurt me is use pressure.
I'm fully aware of how diverse Paladins can be and how many skills they have in their disposal, but if you prevent them from using all those other skills in any way that would actually help them to defeat their opponent, then even Paladins are reduced to one skill wonders.
You probably look down on Pally|sader or you have never duel a pally that is as variety as pally could be. I had said many, but you seem to ignore them. I felt bad to repetively saying the same thing. If pressure and shield chain is all you think pally has, that is so not true. It would be benefit for you in knowing pally by dueling who really specified building against Scholars.
Addressing the post on the previous page, I don't believe that a skill like Soul Burn with a 15 second downtime between the next cast will help you dictate the SP flow of a battle significantly.
Also, your INT doesn't play a large part in your Freeze resistance, if even at all - the main factor is your base Mdef.
In order to reduce the Paladin's entire arsenal to Pressure, you'll have to address a wide variety of skills by executing WoF + Web + Safety Wall. Not allowing Web to run out means refreshing it every 4 seconds or so that it lasts, and that means you'll lose out on a lot of your offensive ability since there's definitely going to be an issue with after-cast delay. The Paladin can hide clip to delay you further by forcing you to sight. On top of that, you'll have to deal with any status effects the Paladin throws your way, whether via weapon or armor. Plus, there's always the chance that the Paladin will take the duel seriously and specialize a particular build, possibly even skilling GC.
I agree that a top tier Prof can beat a top tier Paladin. However, I believe the matchup is biased towards the Paladin.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Aozora on December 26, 2007, 07:50:56 am
As I said, those are not the only skills you have. I'm well aware that Pallies have shitloads of effective skills, the point is that they dion't have shitloads of efective long ranged skills. I can keep you webbed from 9 cells. If you tihnk you can do much when you're webbed, burned, dispelled and I'm sitting in a fog then please do tell me.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Skywalker21 on December 26, 2007, 08:16:39 am
As I said, those are not the only skills you have. I'm well aware that Pallies have shitloads of effective skills, the point is that they dion't have shitloads of efective long ranged skills. I can keep you webbed from 9 cells. If you tihnk you can do much when you're webbed, burned, dispelled and I'm sitting in a fog then please do tell me.
I would probably 12 cell Shield Boomerang with status effect and 9 cell 2k spammable Pressure due to no aftercast delay if it misses. Paladin could heal off any damage you can do from 9 cells away, and escape your Web if you maintain long distance combat by waiting it out. Could also Sanctuary and Hide clip and wait for Web to run out as well, forcing you to Sight close up, or wait for you to Status from Shield Boom. Grape juice a few times every Dispel.
Prof's best chance is probably to remain close with Safety Wall and try to Strip while dishing out several types of elemental damage when noticing shield is off. Have to take into account status armor if you melee though, as well as constantly keep Web up when Paladin moves out of LP to Gospel and keep LP up immediately after. That's why it's probably tough. Otherwise, force them to Heal Spam after the Paladin guesses wrong with taking off the shield and make them backpedal by dishing out as much damage as possible, or getting off a lucky Strip, LPing constantly and attacking with ranged magic, hoping they aren't smart enough to Maya.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Rambler on December 26, 2007, 08:42:10 pm
Why is MoE so modest =x If you are talking top top tier like MoE/Thresher/Gene the amount of damage a prof can do is a pittance. 112 MDEF, are you going to tickle them with your tome? Any top tier dueler worth a crap will take their shield off if you try to move in for the strip, assuming he doesn't just knock you away. If you think you're going to out attrition a paladin using sp control that's pretty funny, unless you plan on 5 hours of perfect play per duel. (On that same note you'd probably run out of webs before they ran out of GJ) Hopefully during those 9001 hours of dueling you don't get hit at all, or mailbreaker will break all your armor one by one. Since I doubt you have a valk GR (not that it would be likely a prof would carry a valk GR anyways due to weight issues), I hope your vitata clip can outheal those unmitigated shield chains. Better not status either, since that would take a huge chunk of your HP away.
Having dueled several good profs on HP without GJ, it's safe to say that a prof with vitata can't even heal through crasher switchups for 140 damage. And any prof that actually duels one of the three top top tier paladins on the server is in for a rude awakening. lulz at prof damage. You can reduce spells to single-digit damage easily, and good luck trying to strip a top tier player.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Seaking on December 26, 2007, 09:34:49 pm
I know that Pallies aren't jsut one skill wonders, but what the point is that if I web you, your whole offensive potential will be reduced to one single skill, Pressure. Shield boomerang does not do any sort of considerable damage if I'm wearing reduction gears, freezing will be hard since as an INT based class my MDEF will usually be quite high so freezing will be rare occasion that doesn't last long. If I web you, and put on a fog. You can't shield chain, you can't HC, you can't bash, you can't switch armors to mitigate everything since I can attack you using multiple elements at the same time. In this situation all you can do to hurt me is use pressure.
I'm fully aware of how diverse Paladins can be and how many skills they have in their disposal, but if you prevent them from using all those other skills in any way that would actually help them to defeat their opponent, then even Paladins are reduced to one skill wonders.
Actually, if they are not IC you can Spell Breaker their Pressure, can you not?
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: samba on December 26, 2007, 10:49:31 pm
I know that Pallies aren't jsut one skill wonders, but what the point is that if I web you, your whole offensive potential will be reduced to one single skill, Pressure. Shield boomerang does not do any sort of considerable damage if I'm wearing reduction gears, freezing will be hard since as an INT based class my MDEF will usually be quite high so freezing will be rare occasion that doesn't last long. If I web you, and put on a fog. You can't shield chain, you can't HC, you can't bash, you can't switch armors to mitigate everything since I can attack you using multiple elements at the same time. In this situation all you can do to hurt me is use pressure.
I'm fully aware of how diverse Paladins can be and how many skills they have in their disposal, but if you prevent them from using all those other skills in any way that would actually help them to defeat their opponent, then even Paladins are reduced to one skill wonders.
Actually, if they are not IC you can Spell Breaker their Pressure, can you not?
There are ways to stop dispell. As far as i know you cant dispell yourself, this makes status effect going and forcing professors to use effect removal items. Like Evani said, the weight limit makes professor can only carry so limited stuffs in comparing with pally who have sort of weight capacity.
In some extreme in some cases, I mention that it would end up a draw because professor can use their very last web and run away and log. >.> That is an advantage from professor that a pally can do when professor does that. A common strategy of placing webs and walking away isnt as easy as people think too. cloaking | hiding can also be used. That would force professor to come for 3 cell near if they want to have a target to aim for it.
I feel bad in continuing the discussion before it gets to "pride and defending reputation" instead of scholarly creditable debates in a meta-game.
Pardon my word choices if you found offensive.
Regards,
Samba
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Aozora on December 27, 2007, 09:12:32 am
As I said, those are not the only skills you have. I'm well aware that Pallies have shitloads of effective skills, the point is that they dion't have shitloads of efective long ranged skills. I can keep you webbed from 9 cells. If you tihnk you can do much when you're webbed, burned, dispelled and I'm sitting in a fog then please do tell me.
I would probably 12 cell Shield Boomerang with status effect and 9 cell 2k spammable Pressure due to no aftercast delay if it misses. Paladin could heal off any damage you can do from 9 cells away, and escape your Web if you maintain long distance combat by waiting it out. Could also Sanctuary and Hide clip and wait for Web to run out as well, forcing you to Sight close up, or wait for you to Status from Shield Boom. Grape juice a few times every Dispel.
Prof's best chance is probably to remain close with Safety Wall and try to Strip while dishing out several types of elemental damage when noticing shield is off. Have to take into account status armor if you melee though, as well as constantly keep Web up when Paladin moves out of LP to Gospel and keep LP up immediately after. That's why it's probably tough. Otherwise, force them to Heal Spam after the Paladin guesses wrong with taking off the shield and make them backpedal by dishing out as much damage as possible, or getting off a lucky Strip, LPing constantly and attacking with ranged magic, hoping they aren't smart enough to Maya.
Okay fine two skills =/ So you can shield boomerang with stauses. I can stack MDEF gears to prevent freezing, there's no point in using reduction gears on long ranged atatck that doesn't do much damage anyways. You can't freeze me, green pots are allowed so no silence, fog makes your SB deal quite bad damage. And I could use indestructable armor to prevent maibreaking. So as I said, Pressure is pretty much the only skill you can use to do decet damage against me. Most pallies don't carry around Blinkers so I could fog you so you couldn't even pressure me thanks to blind. This would allow me to get closer, strip and beat up.
But seriously, this whole thread was about who can beat Pallies, Profs can beat pallies. Can we move on to next class -_- I'm getting tired of debating.
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Why is MoE so modest =x If you are talking top top tier like MoE/Thresher/Gene the amount of damage a prof can do is a pittance. 112 MDEF, are you going to tickle them with your tome? Any top tier dueler worth a crap will take their shield off if you try to move in for the strip, assuming he doesn't just knock you away. If you think you're going to out attrition a paladin using sp control that's pretty funny, unless you plan on 5 hours of perfect play per duel. (On that same note you'd probably run out of webs before they ran out of GJ) Hopefully during those 9001 hours of dueling you don't get hit at all, or mailbreaker will break all your armor one by one. Since I doubt you have a valk GR (not that it would be likely a prof would carry a valk GR anyways due to weight issues), I hope your vitata clip can outheal those unmitigated shield chains. Better not status either, since that would take a huge chunk of your HP away.
Having dueled several good profs on HP without GJ, it's safe to say that a prof with vitata can't even heal through crasher switchups for 140 damage. And any prof that actually duels one of the three top top tier paladins on the server is in for a rude awakening. lulz at prof damage. You can reduce spells to single-digit damage easily, and good luck trying to strip a top tier player.
112 MDEF+Neutral and elemental reductions at the same time in case I start to actually melee with dual megs and Valk helm? Good going I must say o.o; Pally taking his shield off? Now why on earth would he do that and lose most of their damage dealing skills and reduction buffs? A Pally will take shield off only if he absolutely has to. Knock me away with? I'm pretty sure they only have one knockbackskill which is ranged, and thus you're ablo to block it with fog. Besides why would you knock back the Prof? He being close is only good for you since you can shield chain. No I don't plan to use SP control to completely dominate, I plan to use it as a strategy to make it harder for the Paladin to spam his skills since it actually does get harder with low SP. Why would I actually even care about weight? I can vitata+Health convert all the SP I want or just simply spam GJ like everyone does =/ Without GJ HP's are pretty much theonly ones who'll have a fair shot against Scholars thanks to burn, HP's can use magni and natural SP recovery to get their SP into nice numbers. Most other classes can't.
Several good Profs? I'm pretty sure there aren't really any top tier profs left on this server =/
But seriously, next class please.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Rambler on December 27, 2007, 01:22:53 pm
Aozora, your description of a match is so inaccurate it's hilarious. I repeat, a prof cannot beat a top-top tier paladin like MoE/Thresher/Gene in a standard GJ allowed match, EVER. If you would like to prove me wrong go ahead and try. I can even lend you gear. (PS, good luck carrying megs and valk helms on a prof without severely scewing your build, having to ditch brys, or pushing yourself over 90% weight)
The only classes that realistically have a chance against a well played paladin are well played Sinx/Champs/Creators, end of story. Why don't you try coming into pvp on your prof and I can show you how top-end gear will reduce a profs melee and magic into laughable quantities. Extranghero can't beat top tier paladins, Chellah couldn't, and I'm betting you can't either.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: CrueZ on December 27, 2007, 01:29:05 pm
Chellah would say otherwise. Ha ha ha.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Rambler on December 27, 2007, 01:32:10 pm
Probably =P But every duel she had against a good paladin I ever saw usually ended in a draw, sometimes a loss.
I should add Cruez to the list of leet pally's, cause of your special sex ray attack. 10,000 unblockable damage D:
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: CrueZ on December 27, 2007, 01:44:17 pm
I tried finding it in my skill list, couldn't find that special sex ray attack. :o
Edit: Added the :o face. Forgot to make an expression.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Rambler on December 27, 2007, 01:49:10 pm
The skill only shows itself during times of emergency :o
hehe I really want to see aozora duel Thresher. Some people don't seem to know what top-tier gear looks like. 100+ MDEF, 100%+ damage reflection from overupped valk mant/shield/skill, and excellent movement and positioning. He can either hit him with spells for zero's or melee and do more damage back to himself than he's doing to thresher. Hopefully profs have more HP than paladins, oh wait.
edit: I'll add in a random :o just for cruez =P
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Legault. on December 27, 2007, 07:15:24 pm
Some people don't seem to know what top-tier gear looks like.
That's what happens most of the time. Since most people are not used to see that kind of gear, they think it's possible or impossible to do something x_x
I think that only those 3-4 Top Tier Paladin's, are the only ones in the server that have reduced my Storm Gust to 1, with that huge MDEF :(
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: lugsy on December 27, 2007, 07:37:00 pm
Moe/Thresher/Gene? I would be suprised if you got more than the occasional win over those three, since they gospel hax.
I know they gospel hax, I can strip more than once ._.; And I never said " OMGZ I pwnzors those nubs" I said I've beaten them. They're never in pvp much to say anything other than "I've beaten them" :/
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Rambler on December 27, 2007, 08:19:29 pm
Really? What's your record? Cause I can't recall you winning any D:
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: lugsy on December 27, 2007, 08:45:10 pm
Really? What's your record? Cause I can't recall you winning any D:
last time you saw me in pvp was probably back when I was still using a Keen arablast or something >=o /heh And I don't know; out of those 3 I've faught with Gene the most. :/
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: crusaderforjustice on December 27, 2007, 08:46:22 pm
lets get the best Prof's and the best Pallies and see what happens :D. and i constantly keep seeing something about putting on a GTB will lose IC. what if you put a gtb on an aegis? is that not possible or something? ppl can carry 2 aegis(im assuming) if they'd like and are that crazy.
edit: is it possible to put a gtb on an aegis?
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Legault. on December 27, 2007, 09:24:12 pm
lets get the best Prof's and the best Pallies and see what happens :D. and i constantly keep seeing something about putting on a GTB will lose IC. what if you put a gtb on an aegis? is that not possible or something? ppl can carry 2 aegis(im assuming) if they'd like and are that crazy.
edit: is it possible to put a gtb on an aegis?
Yeah, it's possible to put a GTB on an Aegis. . .but WHY?!!
It would be stupid to put a GTB card into an Aegis, when you can have 112 MDEF <_<
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: crusaderforjustice on December 27, 2007, 09:35:10 pm
the only reason why i mentioned it was throughout this thread people kept saying once the gtb goes on, there is no ic(referring to aegis). yea i do realize its not that great to do it.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Chellah on December 28, 2007, 05:54:40 am
Me? If it was Aegis Shield back then or our own Aegis Shield any prof could beat the crap out of Aegis Shield user, Aegis in here is overbuffed cause ..... nevermind. Anyway It won't change anything, having a 100mdef will get you in more serious trouble anyway.
Me got beaten or draw against pallies? If they keep spamming GJ's like no tomorrow I guess a draw and still result for me to outdamage, but a loss? Not that I brag but, really, Any prof who would train and practice hard could beat any class. When I still play here I made Gene force only to heal+GJ+gospel and do outdamaged him(dont lie to me Gene!!), Killed the Pally leader of Destined 1vs1(who had the +10 Aegis back then). And still at the server im playing, Prof is the worst matchup against pallies, not that were god like against them,we can still be defeated but prof has the higher chance.
People a lot look down at Profs, when I was teaching something at Aozora we took a Fully SQI geared Pally as a punching bag, he took the pally out forcing it to only heal+gospel+GJ and died. So yeah never look down on Profs/Scholars, you might talk crap at them but once a good prof show around.../gg? PEACE GUYS!
Merry New Year and Happy X'mas ;D
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Thresher on December 28, 2007, 09:22:14 am
The only classes that realistically have a chance against a well played paladin are well played Sinx/Champs/Creators, end of story.
._. add Stalker, I'm pretty sure I've beaten all of your listed pally's :<
Well yeah. Even a Clown can get lucky and kills me. If I recall correctly the score was about 20:(1-2) for me. It's true that you can strip me more than once but I can also reequip more than once. And If you would become dangerous to me I'd just make new weapons that would crush you. I'm not saying that you aren't good but you are not a match for me /ok
;D
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Rambler on December 28, 2007, 09:50:35 am
Me? If it was Aegis Shield back then or our own Aegis Shield any prof could beat the crap out of Aegis Shield user, Aegis in here is overbuffed cause ..... nevermind. Anyway It won't change anything, having a 100mdef will get you in more serious trouble anyway.
Me got beaten or draw against pallies? If they keep spamming GJ's like no tomorrow I guess a draw and still result for me to outdamage, but a loss? Not that I brag but, really, Any prof who would train and practice hard could beat any class. When I still play here I made Gene force only to heal+GJ+gospel and do outdamaged him(dont lie to me Gene!!), Killed the Pally leader of Destined 1vs1(who had the +10 Aegis back then). And still at the server im playing, Prof is the worst matchup against pallies, not that were god like against them,we can still be defeated but prof has the higher chance.
People a lot look down at Profs, when I was teaching something at Aozora we took a Fully SQI geared Pally as a punching bag, he took the pally out forcing it to only heal+gospel+GJ and died. So yeah never look down on Profs/Scholars, you might talk crap at them but once a good prof show around.../gg? PEACE GUYS!
Merry New Year and Happy X'mas ;D
Maybe back in the day before the era of +9001 valk mants and 100+ MDEF builds. But when all your spells do zero and melee attacks get reflected back to you more than 100% there isn't much you can do.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: lugsy on December 28, 2007, 10:50:56 am
The only classes that realistically have a chance against a well played paladin are well played Sinx/Champs/Creators, end of story.
._. add Stalker, I'm pretty sure I've beaten all of your listed pally's :<
Well yeah. Even a Clown can get lucky and kills me. If I recall correctly the score was about 20:(1-2) for me. It's true that you can strip me more than once but I can also reequip more than once. And If you would become dangerous to me I'd just make new weapons that would crush you. I'm not saying that you aren't good but you are not a match for me /ok
;D
getting a little cocky aren't we?oO; It's much easy to strip more than once than to reequip more than once. And since you're throwing out theories and stuff; I've done (in a full magic build) spear of ice' that have hit for 10k( stripped target of course), can easily get off 3 in a second.. 30k dps.. I'm pretty sure that > you fighting to reequip ;/. (I'm not saying it'd hit you for 10k, but it'd be well up there enough :P)
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: aarox on December 28, 2007, 10:58:55 am
any class can beat anyclass you just have to have the right stuff+
Yea =.= and the other guy mustn't have all the right stuff...
It's just like saying "Class X is almost impossible to kill with all the right stuff" right next to "Class X can defeat any class with all the right stuff".
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: aarox on December 28, 2007, 11:08:18 am
any class can beat anyclass you just have to have the right stuff+
Yea =.= and the other guy mustn't have all the right stuff...
It's just like saying "Class X is almost impossible to kill with all the right stuff" right next to "Class X can defeat any class with all the right stuff".
nod, thats perfectly correct
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Chellah on December 28, 2007, 11:18:23 am
Maybe back in the day before the era of +9001 valk mants and 100+ MDEF builds. But when all your spells do zero and melee attacks get reflected back to you more than 100% there isn't much you can do.
Nothing changed even if there are valks around, Seems to me you really look down on profs that low.
Even with tons of Mdef, a good Prof will just mind break it to half and hit you both melee and magic.If you put too much Mdef you'll loose your reduction against a Melee Crit Prof which can still use magic that badly. Pally buffs? Just Dispell them and all of it is gone. Aegis Reflect? Strip it. and still a lot lot more to it.There are a lot of ways, If you really still look down on prof then be my guess. I can't blame you anyway since all the profs you seen so far just spam WaterBall like no tomorrow.
Anyway, I don't battle out of theory or talk. If what is you believe is ok then it's ok. I just prove myself at PvP ;)
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Bajorgas on December 28, 2007, 11:36:11 am
Okay fine two skills =/ So you can shield boomerang with stauses. I can stack MDEF gears to prevent freezing, there's no point in using reduction gears on long ranged atatck that doesn't do much damage anyways. You can't freeze me, green pots are allowed so no silence, fog makes your SB deal quite bad damage. And I could use indestructable armor to prevent maibreaking. So as I said, Pressure is pretty much the only skill you can use to do decet damage against me. Most pallies don't carry around Blinkers so I could fog you so you couldn't even pressure me thanks to blind. This would allow me to get closer, strip and beat up.
A paladin would have cure which removes blind, so why would they need blinkers?
Edit:Fixed
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: lugsy on December 28, 2007, 11:37:58 am
Okay fine two skills =/ So you can shield boomerang with stauses. I can stack MDEF gears to prevent freezing, there's no point in using reduction gears on long ranged atatck that doesn't do much damage anyways. You can't freeze me, green pots are allowed so no silence, fog makes your SB deal quite bad damage. And I could use indestructable armor to prevent maibreaking. So as I said, Pressure is pretty much the only skill you can use to do decet damage against me. Most pallies don't carry around Blinkers so I could fog you so you couldn't even pressure me thanks to blind. This would allow me to get closer, strip and beat up.
A paladin would have cure which removes silence, so why would they need blinkers?
1) You can't use cure on yourself when you're Silenced 2) We're talking about blind, not silence o.O; 3) Most pally's Can't be silenced as is.. wtf? oO; xD
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Legault. on December 28, 2007, 12:41:37 pm
If they can't be silenced, they can't get the blind status.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Rambler on December 28, 2007, 02:00:51 pm
Maybe back in the day before the era of +9001 valk mants and 100+ MDEF builds. But when all your spells do zero and melee attacks get reflected back to you more than 100% there isn't much you can do.
Nothing changed even if there are valks around, Seems to me you really look down on profs that low.
Even with tons of Mdef, a good Prof will just mind break it to half and hit you both melee and magic.If you put too much Mdef you'll loose your reduction against a Melee Crit Prof which can still use magic that badly. Pally buffs? Just Dispell them and all of it is gone. Aegis Reflect? Strip it. and still a lot lot more to it.There are a lot of ways, If you really still look down on prof then be my guess. I can't blame you anyway since all the profs you seen so far just spam WaterBall like no tomorrow.
Anyway, I don't battle out of theory or talk. If what is you believe is ok then it's ok. I just prove myself at PvP ;)
True enough =P I guess there really aren't any good profs atm. It's easy enough to draw with a prof on HP, and I guess I didn't see how a paladin couldn't if a HP can. (The ability to gospel and knockback, and to actually do damage and mailbreaker is such a big boost)
edit: on a side note, what's with all the talk about shield stripping. What decent player honestly gets their shield stripped nowadays when it's so easy to /bm back and forth between a two-handed swap and your standard set-up whenever the prof fogs on you or starts running up. Sure you can capitalize when their shields off but that means you are sitting within attack range. Still, anyone who loses their maya valk to strip needz maor practice ;<
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Man Of Emperium on December 28, 2007, 06:19:27 pm
@Aozora, Shield Charge is melee, not a ranged attack. You also say that you would melee a Paladin who stacks Mdef, but didn't you say yourself that you would neutralize your skills via Web and staying 9 Cells away? If you get that close, it's a whole other ballgame. You're more likely to be blinded by Holy Cross than the Paladin is by WoF considering our Vit comparisons.
@Chellah, I've always heard that Mind Breaker only reduces your Int Mdef, not your base Mdef from equipment. I know that it didn't make a noticeable damage difference when it was used on me successfully in PvP. Thresher is probably one of the only Paladins on the server with a Maya Aegis, meaning he wouldn't need to swap to dish out damage while nerfing the Prof's damage.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Thresher on December 28, 2007, 06:59:22 pm
I've read a few pages. I can win like at least 90% of prof duels without GJ. I run 94 Base int and my SP recovery is fast enough that it allows me to Heal and use some skills frequently and not to mention that it takes quite some time to burn the 1,9 k SP i have. A mele build is a fail vs me since my Valk mant itself grants me 21% reflect with heals over 2.4k. Running 112 Mdef grants me magic immunity and the ability to heal at the same time. Frostblades and Eztranghero are one of the best profs active in PvP lately and I can't recall having any big problems with them unless I played without my Maya Aegis which was just for more fun.
About the Peco. Depends on the build and the person I guess. With the Holly Cross/Shield Chain build It would be really unwise to use it since you already have to sacrifice some skill points on defensive aura skills and Pressure (It's useful only up to lyl 2 anyway in 1 vs 1 duels since the long delay can cause you unwanted problems). And since the only classes that I have problems with force me into using Defender I don't use a Peco. And if an opponent runs away I can always heal up to full HP so it's not really like I'd have to rush towards them like LKs since they usually don't use Heal.
And about Biochemists. Can't really say that I have too big problems with them. I reduce my Vit to about 66 while fighting Bios (with removing certain equips and not due to a restat) and a 2.4-2.5k heal I can mostly out heal them even if they swap to a different weapon. With djinn they hit 180ish per hit (1800 per AD) at most but even if their AD damage raises to 3000 per AD they loose IC and therefore the cast rate of my Heal becomes faster than those of AD.
For IP/CK. Well a really good sinX might have a chance if I don't use Tao at the beginning. They usually can't get my HP below 10k if I start with Tao and continue with Poison/GR swaps at 30k HP (and for this I don't even start to heal myself)
To be honest It's next to impossible to kill a pally if he can use GJ. I won't comment how the outcome may be without GJ since really only a handful of players agreed with me on a non GJ duel. I can only say that Snipers have good chances and I used every status armor/weapon that I could get including stun, silence and sleep. It's like whoever makes the first mistake looses. If they burn your SP you are dead since defender only gives you a bit more time. And on the other side. If you land a good SC they are nearly dead. And please don't come with "How can a pally loose to a Sniper? wth!?" If you haven't dueled Miracle or Zeto without GJ just STFU. They knew how to get near immune to status effects.
You probably haven't read all of the "wall of text" but just ask me for a Duel if you see me in PvP. Tough I'm a bit nonactive in PvP atm because of the Niff Christmas even /ok
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: A.D.DFreak on December 29, 2007, 01:26:17 am
Its funny...almost every game i run into has this kinda problem.......
Warriors who have Heal is close to unstoppable...... WARRIORS AREN"T SUPPOSE TO HAVE THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE, WARRIORS ARE SUPPOSE TO BEAT THE SHET OUTTA THINGS!!!XD
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: ShinigamiSama on December 29, 2007, 02:39:19 am
I hate threads like these because 90% of the input is theory involved in Theory you always win, or the one you would think would win would.
The factors to consider are too many. So my suggestion would be
Fight them, learn, rinse repeat.
Play more, get better.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Thresher on December 29, 2007, 05:32:35 am
Its funny...almost every game i run into has this kinda problem.......
Warriors who have Heal is close to unstoppable...... WARRIORS AREN"T SUPPOSE TO HAVE THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE, WARRIORS ARE SUPPOSE TO BEAT THE SHET OUTTA THINGS!!!XD
The problem isn't that Paladins have heal. I mean what could we do without it? Shield Chain our opponents to death? There's almost no way that a pally can out damage another class played by a top tier player. You can easily reduce Shield Chains damage to like 10-15 times less than it's original damage. And holly cross isn't too strong even with 190 str (doing about 350 per strike, 700 all together on a character with toad and good defense and even less on players with really high defense).
It's near impossible for me to kill a Top tier Champ unless the reflected asura kills him, but that doesn't stop me from trying and improving. Champ duels are boring anyway, all they do is spam Asura. It was fun only against Tori no Uta and there is currently no sight of a Champ with powers comparable to his.
@Aozora, Shield Charge is melee, not a ranged attack. You also say that you would melee a Paladin who stacks Mdef, but didn't you say yourself that you would neutralize your skills via Web and staying 9 Cells away? If you get that close, it's a whole other ballgame. You're more likely to be blinded by Holy Cross than the Paladin is by WoF considering our Vit comparisons.
Yes staying away and using ranged skills is one option, if I get close it's a whole other ballgame. Doesn't mean I can't do it o.o;
Quote
A paladin would have cure which removes blind, so why would they need blinkers?
Because if you cure yourself inside a fog you'll just get blinded again since WoF blind is an area effect that you can only neutralize by eitehr wearing something that prevents blind or by moving away from the AoE.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Legault. on December 29, 2007, 02:36:01 pm
Paladin class is not a Warrior Type (Offensive), they are an Hybrid or defensive class. Mmm the Warrior one is the Lord Knight :P
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: crusaderforjustice on December 29, 2007, 03:45:52 pm
after a normal PvP battle/duel, people should be inclined to do duels with restrictions on them. Such as no GTB or no supplies etc.
Title: Re: Paladins.
Post by: Man Of Emperium on January 18, 2008, 03:07:07 am
Old topic, but yeah, so like LP doesn't prevent Gospel from removing Strip status, it just prevents the animation from casting. You can still cancel Strip by hitting your Gospel key regardless of where you are.
If there are any Profs out there that think that their class is a great match-up for Paladins in the current PvP scene, just PM me/post here and we'll spar. I'd like to see if you're doing something that other Profs aren't, and also try out some strategies against you too. I'm fine with posting results as well as the way they were achieved, so that this thread isn't just about theory fighting, but actual gameplay experience too. Feel free to borrow equipment if you don't think you have top tier gears.