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Print Page - How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?

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The 'Other' Section => AnesisRO Archive => Archive => General Questions => Topic started by: Mercury on August 15, 2008, 03:17:16 am

Title: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: Mercury on August 15, 2008, 03:17:16 am
I always wondered...sorry if this is newb I couldn't find anything on the search.
Title: Re: How do Alchemist form such ginormous mobs?
Post by: eimi on August 15, 2008, 03:24:19 am
if you mean the plants its with bio cannibalize (http://ratemyserver.net/skill_db.php?skid=232&small=1&back=1), you get homunc sumoning powers after you get your quest skills ~nyo^^
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: tizzi on August 15, 2008, 04:00:31 am
They get a Filir or a Vanil.
Homunculus Flee/DEF are not reduced by mobs, so once it can out-flee one pretty well, it can do that with all.

This is how it works:
So once you got your pudding or bird/chicken, you train it. Go to Niff really early, even if the monsters beat the crap out of your pudding. After all, you want to start the mobbin' asap. Finally, settle for niff. First, you need to take your homunculus out. Slowly walk the entire map. You do not want Agility or anything, you want to walk as slowly as possible to get even the last monster. The other players will appreciate they peace and relaxation they find in Niff while you hold up the entire spawn.

While you walk, make sure that you run through other people. Totally okay. You may lose a single Dullahan or two on them, but no worries, you can get them back. What you do is this: Whenever you see someone standing there, waiting for you to pass by, run a few circles around them, to get every single monster that may spawn here (they'll go for the homun first). Make sure you always stay really close to other players, so that the mobs they haven't yet trained on them run off to you.

Then, at some point, once you got like half of Niff on you, you may decide that it's now time to lead the mob into your friend's pre-casted ME. The game will then explode with damage numbers, and now you can let the e-pee hang out: You must then say something like "lol", or maybe do a /hlp emote so support priests that may be around run over to see if you need resurrection (lol such idiots - make sure you say "lol" when they come over to help, to show them what idiots they are). And off you set for another slow round through Niflheim.
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: Souless_koji on August 15, 2008, 05:29:51 am
They abuse a bug/flaw and love to steal peoples monsters, I dont even try to niff to lvl a character these days cause I'll just end up being mobbed of being ksed/stolen from.
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: aone on August 15, 2008, 07:03:12 am
for one, it doesnt even have anything to do with epeen. i just help a friend lvl the best way i know how. and, i've only done it once, so anyway. even still, i've never lost a mob of any size to a homunc mobber.

for another, let's not confuse new people.

and finally, please don't generalize about homunc mobbers. just like not everyone with a pcb is an asshole.

but anyway, it was answered.
They get a Filir or a Vanil.
Homunculus Flee/DEF are not reduced by mobs, so once it can out-flee one pretty well, it can do that with all.
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: o0Lex0o on August 15, 2008, 07:13:17 am
They get a Filir or a Vanil.
Homunculus Flee/DEF are not reduced by mobs, so once it can out-flee one pretty well, it can do that with all.

This is how it works:
So once you got your pudding or bird/chicken, you train it. Go to Niff really early, even if the monsters beat the crap out of your pudding. After all, you want to start the mobbin' asap. Finally, settle for niff. First, you need to take your homunculus out. Slowly walk the entire map. You do not want Agility or anything, you want to walk as slowly as possible to get even the last monster. The other players will appreciate they peace and relaxation they find in Niff while you hold up the entire spawn.

While you walk, make sure that you run through other people. Totally okay. You may lose a single Dullahan or two on them, but no worries, you can get them back. What you do is this: Whenever you see someone standing there, waiting for you to pass by, run a few circles around them, to get every single monster that may spawn here (they'll go for the homun first). Make sure you always stay really close to other players, so that the mobs they haven't yet trained on them run off to you.

Then, at some point, once you got like half of Niff on you, you may decide that it's now time to lead the mob into your friend's pre-casted ME. The game will then explode with damage numbers, and now you can let the e-pee hang out: You must then say something like "lol", or maybe do a /hlp emote so support priests that may be around run over to see if you need resurrection (lol such idiots - make sure you say "lol" when they come over to help, to show them what idiots they are). And off you set for another slow round through Niflheim.

Oh god, I lol'd so hard

It really is true though, there's a glitch, and the mobs will aggro the homun if you take your finger off the mouse for even a SECOND. Yar. Not fun. /bzz
Then they rarely die.
HOWEVER. When they do die. HURRY AND RUN FAST cause half of niff will be right there for you to grab! It's great when you're like 98, 87%. You can get like 10% off one of their hugiantous mobs! /ok
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: beagle888 on August 15, 2008, 11:47:29 am
If you don't want your mob stolen, give it an occasional whack, or if you're a priest, the occasional sanctuary.  Once the mobs have been hit by you, they won't switch to someone else, including a homunculus.
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: Avix_Aao~ on August 15, 2008, 01:39:13 pm
Make sure if you hav effect armor like sleep and stun or blind effect from saders GC that they will go towards the homoculus first than going bak to you. Some ppl will then run towards after the monster theyre attking towards the other players homoculus happens wit saders and bs's all the time when bs use hammerfall an don't attk asap to keep the mob on em or saders using sleep armor then GCing wit the blind effect an they run automatically towards the homoculus
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: sharpshooter223 on August 15, 2008, 02:07:57 pm
whenever you see someone with a huge mob like that, just teleport, because what they usualyl do is mob you, wait for you to die, and then keep going now with the addition of the mob you were dragging, and they wont even bother to res you after.  so its better to just teleport and lose your mob than to die and lose your mob.
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: Mercury on August 15, 2008, 02:29:00 pm
But why is this behavior permitted?
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: tizzi on August 15, 2008, 05:27:59 pm
But why is this behavior permitted?

That is a very good question.
First of all, mobbing another player (without their permission) is not allowed. If someone drags a huge mob through you and you die, you can report them for (attempted) MPK (the reporting guidelines require you to have two screenshots, one of them approaching, one of their mob on you (you do not need to die for attempted MPK) - any of these two with the mobber's name, and you have a case).
While some people are nice and fly wing/teleport away, you are not required. Personally, I do not teleport away, because if I'm in Niff, I'm supporting a party. Would be even better if the priest that's supporting them suddenly teleports away so they die from the mob.
As for mobbing with the homunculus like that, I believe the reasoning is that "Gravity made the game that way"; and probably also because it's going to be something hard to enforce and to prove. If I'm not mistaken, on Gravity's servers, the newest episode, people are still abusing the targetting bug with homunculi and MVPs to kill Valkyrie and other MVPs - and while the GMs there sometimes mess up their set up and foil the killing attempt, it's tolerated there as well.

If you don't want your mob stolen, give it an occasional whack, or if you're a priest, the occasional sanctuary.  Once the mobs have been hit by you, they won't switch to someone else, including a homunculus.

High Orc card switches :)

for one, it doesnt even have anything to do with epeen. i just help a friend lvl the best way i know how. and, i've only done it once, so anyway. even still, i've never lost a mob of any size to a homunc mobber.

for another, let's not confuse new people.

and finally, please don't generalize about homunc mobbers. just like not everyone with a pcb is an asshole.

but anyway, it was answered.
They get a Filir or a Vanil.
Homunculus Flee/DEF are not reduced by mobs, so once it can out-flee one pretty well, it can do that with all.

For one, there's e-peen all around. There's no problem with mobbing small. It doesn't have to be half of Niflheim and then some, but the e-peen doesn't allow anything less. For another, that guy there is very bright, as you can see by his latest reply. He's not confused, neither is the post confusing. And finally, you are in no position of telling me what I need or do not need to do. I'm sharing my experience, and as long as every "homunc mobber" I have seen (partly or entirely) acts like the figure I have portrayed, I will say that.
You are free to prove me wrong by not acting like the iconic figure described in my post, however seeing your posting, I feel confirmed in my views, not only because I see on your overreaction to an obvious satire that I have hit a sore spot (and yes, of course it has to do with e-penis. Only when the screen explodes, the high priests desperately spam heal and run in circles and then exhaustedly gasp "lol that was huge", only then the mob is right. There is no way that a normal-sized mob can be run into an ME, that wouldn't be good enough. It HAS to be half of Niflheim), but also because your first sentence demonstrates just perfectly the views of these people:

"i just help a friend lvl the best way i know how."

Exactly. And that can only be done by getting a hugeass mob while everyone else in the map gets nothing. To help them level, you can just drag smaller mob, sized like typical WS-mobs to them, and they'll level too. For those you don't really need a homunculus either, because these mobs will not deal substantial damage to you. Your "the best way I know" is the issue - yes, a hugeass mob that has every single monster of Niff in it will help them "lvl the best way i know how", but it will do that at the cost of everyone else.
This is not to say that people cannot mob. People mob all the time, but every class kills them at a fast pace. The monsters then instantly respawn, like the GMs configured it to happen, and so Niff stays mobby and gives good experience -- because new monsters are constantly being created, each one giving out more and more experience. With people sloooowly walking the entire map to get even the last monster, no new monsters will spawn, because all the monsters are still alive - on the pudding/bird of a single player. With those monsters not getting killed (not until much later, when the alchemist finally decides to show mercy and run a fuckin' big nuke in some friend's "help him lvl best way i know how" ME), leveling is literally slowed down for everyone else, as no more experience-giving monsters are created while you hold the monsters on you. Leveling in Niff for *everyone* else (but you, which makes the whole thing extremely egoistic) is slowed down by exactly the time anyone hold the monsters they have on them - but for any other method of mobbing, that time is negligible.

Yeah, you "help your friend lvl" the best way you know how, but it's at the cost of everyone else. Sucks to be them, doesn't it?

"and, i've only done it once, so anyway."
Ahaha. Got you. See, I knew it.

Like I said, prove me wrong. Let me, when I come to Niff again, see that there's an alchemist who does does not act (party or entirely) like I described. I always love being proven wrong.


Oh god, I lol'd so hard

It really is true though, [...]

Thanks <3 Glad to know I entertain, it's one reason I post ;)
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: Emerald Sing on August 16, 2008, 12:48:05 am
They get a Filir or a Vanil.
Homunculus Flee/DEF are not reduced by mobs, so once it can out-flee one pretty well, it can do that with all.

This is how it works:
So once you got your pudding or bird/chicken, you train it. Go to Niff really early, even if the monsters beat the crap out of your pudding. After all, you want to start the mobbin' asap. Finally, settle for niff. First, you need to take your homunculus out. Slowly walk the entire map. You do not want Agility or anything, you want to walk as slowly as possible to get even the last monster. The other players will appreciate they peace and relaxation they find in Niff while you hold up the entire spawn.

While you walk, make sure that you run through other people. Totally okay. You may lose a single Dullahan or two on them, but no worries, you can get them back. What you do is this: Whenever you see someone standing there, waiting for you to pass by, run a few circles around them, to get every single monster that may spawn here (they'll go for the homun first). Make sure you always stay really close to other players, so that the mobs they haven't yet trained on them run off to you.

Then, at some point, once you got like half of Niff on you, you may decide that it's now time to lead the mob into your friend's pre-casted ME. The game will then explode with damage numbers, and now you can let the e-pee hang out: You must then say something like "lol", or maybe do a /hlp emote so support priests that may be around run over to see if you need resurrection (lol such idiots - make sure you say "lol" when they come over to help, to show them what idiots they are). And off you set for another slow round through Niflheim.

Me loves tizzi's posts.

and I love my Ilya (Green Lif)

Off topic-ish but you can kinda imagine replacing the WS with the alchemist with a Birdy or Jello Homonculous:

http://www.anthemro.com/forums/index.php/topic,39088.0.html
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: CaiHong on August 16, 2008, 03:27:36 am
actually I hate those idiots abusing Mobbing so much...
I have a special way to go against them thoug...hehe
when i see an alchi with a mob comming towards and wanna steal my mob, i just wait till he's near enough and then hammer on them... so everything is stunned and i take out my mob.. and some of  his mob...
then i follow the alchy... and when he teleports I look for him on the whole map and get like... one dulli behind be... and same thing again...
till he walks away when he sees me... and stop trying to steal my mob

I already hit my monster.. before he comes and try to mob kill me....



follow my lead and drive those people crazy and make them be more careful when they mob
niff is already overcrowded with too less monster. and when those crazy mobber come to play noone except them gets to really level.

Follow my lead people and do something against these Alchys... the GMs won't do anything because the official server won't do anything against it =)

PS. i called them bugabuser... sorry for that.. i just learned that this is no bug so i modified my post
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: Aena on August 16, 2008, 05:40:30 am
The people who travel half the map and back with their homunculi to make a ridiculous mob slow down the overall efficiency of Skellington, I think.
Regulation is key, crazy people who waste time when the monsters they have in their mobs could have been killed and respawned three times over for two times more exp + loot by the time you get back to your killing point... ~,~;

Also it sucks to be anything that stuns/BLINDS (I hate Grand Crossing when I know there's a homunculus nearby)/etc. monsters and can't finish them off before they return to their senses and decide they like the nearby homunculus better. :[
Being the mobber sucks, too, though, because people intentionally block you off to indirectly steal your mob/prevent you from getting to your destination.  "Well, you walked into my Magnus.  I had it down before you stepped there."
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: CaiHong on August 16, 2008, 07:01:24 am
its ok when the alchie bio have a decent mob... like 10-20
but some onf them have a mob like... 1/2 map monster.... and then they sit down and watch their homos kill them slowly and eventually patch a pot.
when there's a priest in party casting a ME... its much better.

and yeah.. they don't do it because of the exp... they do it to show others how strong and great their digital pixie monster is by abusing the bug.
actually the only annoying thing about the whole thing is that the monsters won't spawn... or like 1 each minute... or when there's a ME priest... all monster respawn at the same time which can cause some weaker player do die... lose 1%, ask niff warp, use Berserk etc.... kinda annoying =)
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: eimi on August 16, 2008, 07:39:24 am
its not a bug its just how gravity made them .-.  ~nyo^^
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: Nerkel on August 16, 2008, 07:56:12 am
its not a bug its just how gravity made them .-.  ~nyo^^

THANK YOU.

Someone finally said it. Its not a bug, its a feature given to a class thats already gimped by most leveling standards.




Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: tizzi on August 16, 2008, 11:08:55 am
its not a bug its just how gravity made them .-.  ~nyo^^

THANK YOU.

Someone finally said it. Its not a bug, its a feature given to a class thats already gimped by most leveling standards.

Yes, I do agree very much that the alchemists are completely gimped. The only useful skill they have is "Acid Demonstration", once they become a creator. Yesterday I saw a creator level in Geffen 4. Gremlin: Acid Demonstration. Deviruchi: Acid Demonstration. Incubus: Acid Demonstration. And while he did that, he caked. Should have taken more screenies, it was fun. Alchemists certainly do not have Demonstration, a very decent and long lasting area spell that does quite good damage and kills mobs fast.

And no matter what, bug, feature (lolwut?) and whatever - slowly collecting half of Niflheim before finally showing mercy and crawling into their friend's ME is rude towards others that level on the same map. There is no problem with having a mob in the size that everyone else has, and killing it fast, keeping up the flow of monsters. But the e-pee doesn't permit it. Just because "Gravity designed something like that" it doesn't mean that it's okay or nice to do. For example, Gravity designed their game that if you cast multiple icewalls directly on someone, it forces them offline. Still doesn't mean I can do that. Likewise, Gravity designed their game so that I can gather a mob that people cannot handle and run towards them, fly-winging before I reach them (but still close enough so that the mob aggros them). That's allowed by the rules, allowed by the game's design, and people still don't do it.
In addition to that, if it's not a bug, I would love to see an official statement where Gravity says "yeah, that's how it works, that's how we meant it to work, and we had that what you're doing in mind when we designed that, it's a feature you get for being so gimped". Please show me. Because I've seen the "not a bug" card being played so many times; yeah, I can too repeat those same sentences every day like a parrot ("no, snipable MVPs cannot be taken out, they are neeeeded for the wizards to level!!!!", "omg NO don't nerf the evangelist. priests neeeeeeed the cold bolt to defend themselves") - jump onto the bandwagon, god forbid that we actually think ourselves.

Also, since people are so grateful for that post they had to shout out "THANK YOU" - there was nothing preventing you from posting [before them]. But then again, there's that phenomenon described in that last paragraph ... ;)

and yeah.. they don't do it because of the exp... they do it to show others how strong and great their digital pixie monster is by abusing the bug.
actually the only annoying thing about the whole thing is that the monsters won't spawn... or like 1 each minute... or when there's a ME priest... all monster respawn at the same time which can cause some weaker player do die... lose 1%, ask niff warp, use Berserk etc.... kinda annoying =)

Yup, totally agree. You can tell just by playing in Niff and watching how and if monsters spawn if an alchemist is making hugeass mobs by walking most of Niflheim. You'll have long dry periods where nothing spawns, and then suddenly tons of spawns at once, followed by a long dry period without monsters again. Whereas without them, the mob is constantly nice and mobby.

Decent mobs is okay. Nothing wrong with having a mob that's as big as the mobs of those BS/WS is. Run them into the ME quickly, kill them fast, and keep monsters spawning for everyone.

The people who travel half the map and back with their homunculi to make a ridiculous mob slow down the overall efficiency of Skellington, I think.
Regulation is key, crazy people who waste time when the monsters they have in their mobs could have been killed and respawned three times over for two times more exp + loot by the time you get back to your killing point... ~,~;

Yup - and yes, it does slow down the overall efficiency of Skellington, because there's quite simply long periods where no monsters are killed (and thus no new monsters get spawned). It's quite simple: If you pretend Skellington constantly has 50 monsters, and people kill them every 20 seconds, a total of 300 monsters are killed in two minutes. With someone mobbing like 40 monsters for two minutes (and the remaining 10 monsters being killed every 20 seconds as well, even though that's not true, with less monsters people keep looking longer for monsters to kill before they start killing them), you'd only have 100 monsters in those two minutes anymore (out of which almost 50% of the experience goes to one single person).

Also it sucks to be anything that stuns/BLINDS (I hate Grand Crossing when I know there's a homunculus nearby)/etc. monsters and can't finish them off before they return to their senses and decide they like the nearby homunculus better. :[
Being the mobber sucks, too, though, because people intentionally block you off to indirectly steal your mob/prevent you from getting to your destination.  "Well, you walked into my Magnus.  I had it down before you stepped there."

Yeah, agreed as well. I didn't know blinded monsters would actually run off, but monsters breaking out of stun and then running off is kinda annoying too.
Also, I can kind of understand why people do that - blocking off paths is against the rules though, and is reportable (such as this guy, who got muted: http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/tizzis/236072e5.jpg -> http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/tizzis/fcce2076.jpg . BTW, OMG! an alchemist and he's not having a hugeass homun-mob!! how can this possibly happen with such a gimped and nerfed class! *ADs Stormy Knight* Waaaah, we cannot kill anything!!! http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/tizzis/650f2736.jpg http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/tizzis/screenAnthemRO1185.jpg http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/tizzis/screenAnthemRO805.jpg).
Quite seriously, this class is anything but gimped.

Me loves tizzi's posts.

and I love my Ilya (Green Lif)

Off topic-ish but you can kinda imagine replacing the WS with the alchemist with a Birdy or Jello Homonculous:

http://www.anthemro.com/forums/index.php/topic,39088.0.html

Thanks <3 I have a Red Lif, which is adorable too (and which I haven't chosen because I want let my e-pee hang out with mobs that make priests pant "omg that was huge" after healing frantically for a minute, but out of genuine interest in the alchemist class and LUA scripting :3 ).

And yeah, those are big mobs, but the difference here is that with mobs, the game penalizes you by reducing your flee (so monsters hit more often) and your defense (so monsters hit harder), thus indirectly forcing you to kill your mobs fairly fast - keeping up the monster flow in Niff.
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: CaiHong on August 16, 2008, 11:43:06 am
I edited my post...
sorry if i offended any alchies
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: Nerkel on August 16, 2008, 11:45:16 am
The problem is Tizzi, is that without a Homuc, which is the situation I was explaining, Alchemists are a bit underrated and harder to level compared to other classes with equal gears.

Yes, a Homunc is a tool that Alchemists use to level, and thats one of them. I in no way made the assertion that they had no useful skills, but I was trying to imply that without a Homunc, those skills are wasted and harder/pointless to use.

I sent in a ticket to Official Gm's to discern the nature of this problem, whether it is a feature or Bug. Maybe you could have done the same, it was rather simple :3

As for the moral debate, These things were changed Tizzi. AnthemRO can and could've changed them at any time, but were  they? So far, they won't be updated.Moral debate isn't in lying with Gravity but Anthem.

Yes, I was actually that grateful, thanks for pointing it out ^^


Once again, your whole argument was based on the false statement that I mean alchemists were screwed with a homunc, when my implications lied with "without a homunc" as the general sway of the thread before my post lead me to believe that people wanted it removed and/or removed to a degree that would hinder the class.

Lets be honest here, I made 2 mil an hour With Alchemists mobbing in niff. My gears are not amazing, and I was killing at a decent rate.
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: tizzi on August 16, 2008, 12:02:27 pm
As for the moral debate, These things were changed Tizzi. AnthemRO can and could've changed them at any time, but were  they? So far, they won't be updated.Moral debate isn't in lying with Gravity but Anthem.

Once again, your whole argument was based on the false statement that I mean alchemists were screwed without a homunc, when my implications lied with "without a homunc" as the general sway of the thread before my post lead me to believe that people wanted it removed and/or removed to a degree that would hinder the class.

Not really. My "whole argument" is that this sort of behaviour is inconsiderate towards others. That is the only point in this thread, everything else is just flavour. The problem is not necessarily the game, but how some people are playing it.

I would actually be quite surprised if the lack of flee/defense reduction is something the GMs can change at their will, this feels to be like something that would be hard-coded into the server.

The problem, Tizzi, is that without a Homuc, which is the situation I was explaining, Alchemists are a bit underrated and harder to level compared to other classes with equal gears.

That is true in a way, but I do think that is mostly because people do not know how to play that class. There's two common views that people have of the alchemist branch: Acid Demonstration and mob-huge-in-niff. Actually playing that class out of interest doesn't fit in there. A few days ago I saw I Lv. 99 Bio going "B> Acid Demonstration bottles" in Prontera and was like .. hey, they could just make them themselves. But that's how it is - people just don't know there's Pharmacy because their view of the alchemist branch doesn't extend beyond those two things. At least, that's the impression I get, and one that always gets confirmed by watching certain people play.

Yes, a Homunc is a tool that Alchemists use to level, and thats one of them. I in no way made the assertion that they had no useful skills, but I was trying to imply that without a Homunc, those skills are wasted and harder/pointless to use.

I would say those skills complement the homunculus and add a variety of different ways to level. An alchemist does not only have way A to level, but also way B and way C. Quite versatile.

I sent in a ticket to iRO Gm's to discern the nature of this problem, whether it is a feature or Bug. Maybe you could have done the same, it was rather simple :3

Nope; and especially if you filed a ticket, there's no point that I file yet another, those tickets are already too backlogged anyway. They probably have less problems with this, because of the very reasons Varis posted in the other thread.
Most likely, our GMs' view will be similar to the SG using heat, and to what I have said in the thread - that while it's inconsiderate towards others (because it does hold up spawns), people can do it (otherwise something would have been done already; plus abuse of this behaviour would be hard to prove for someone reporting).

Lets be honest here, I made 2 mil an hour With Alchemists mobbing in niff. My gears are not amazing, and I was killing at a decent rate.

Same here, more or less, but without the mobbing and demonstration training. I was mostly doing it for the experience, but I easily got considerably more than what I spent on pots or bottles. One could now argue that this is "pointless and wasteful" with ability to mob huuuuge with homunculus, but then we are in the same point again, namely that it's good for one person at the cost of everyone else who is leveling at the same map.
It is a different situation if they kill them at the pace a WS would.

[Edit: Clarified some points.]
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: Nerkel on August 16, 2008, 12:32:58 pm
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Not really. My "whole argument" is that this sort of behaviour is inconsiderate towards others. That is the only point in this thread, everything else is just flavour. The problem is not necessarily the game, but how some people are playing it.

I would actually be quite surprised if the lack of flee/defense reduction is something the GMs can change at their will, this feels to be like something that would be hard-coded into the server.

I do agree, it is inconsiderate, but when a handful of people begin mobbing large, it affects all alchemists, even those who mob fairly and kill quickly. By Getting rid of those who abuse a feature, you also get rid of those who used it right and were trying to be considerate of others, and that is what I have issues with.

And It does feel like something that is hard coded into the server, but Yuber has shown the ability to change things we thought couldn't be changed ;3

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That is true in a way, but I do think that is mostly because people do not know how to play that class. There's two common views that people have of the alchemist branch: Acid Demonstration and mob-huge-in-niff. Actually playing that class out of interest doesn't fit in there. A few days ago I saw I Lv. 99 Bio going "B> Acid Demonstration bottles" in Prontera and was like .. hey, they could just make them themselves. But that's how it is - people just don't know there's Pharmacy because their view of the alchemist branch doesn't extend beyond those two things. At least, that's the impression I get, and one that always gets confirmed by watching certain people play.

I agree, people do not know how to play a class sometimes, and because of several incorrect facts here that "1. Acid Demo kills everything lol, 2. I can mob heavily in niff, its allowed, etc" when in Reality yes,  you could party with someone and just use Demo's to attack, Aid potions to heal, Homonc's to tank to a degree and have other party members be designated killers/supports, but its the issue of time that frusterates many. I used to be frusterated when I started that I wasn't leveling fast enough compared to my peers, and I wish now I had taken my time instead of growing Angsty and the like. People are impatient by nature, and options like mobbing niff to the largest degree appeal to our impatient ways. Its our abilities to think outside the box and level that makes you independent, and I feel that it has been lost.

On a second though, maybe a debufifng of the Homunc might make alchemists try new stuff. Or everyone wouldjust stop playing alchemist, make a smith/priest, and just trans to bio. ITs hard to say, really.

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I would say those skills complement the homunculus and add a variety of different ways to level. An alchemist does not only have way A to level, but also way B and way C. Quite versatile.

Exactly, I agree. My friend was an alchemist, and he used to use plants + his homunc and spell swords, and when it got mobby he sent a Marine Sphere that way. Quite ingenious, but problems like people killing the plants, ksing the homunc while the alchemist afk's frusterate alot of alchemists.
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Nope; and especially if you filed a ticket, there's no point that I file yet another, those tickets are already too backlogged anyway. They probably have less problems with this, because of the very reasons Varis posted in the other thread.
Most likely, our GMs' view will be similar to the SG using heat, and to what I have said in the thread - that while it's inconsiderate towards others (because it does hold up spawns), people can do it (otherwise something would have been done already; plus abuse of this behaviour would be hard to prove for someone reporting).

Actually, you'd be suprised. Gravity has taken alot of measures to nerf Star Glads as of recently, and we sadly won't be getting those patches for a bit. They've also made mvping a party effort, so wizards and snipers and those bandwagon people you mentioned can't solo.

I'm not arguing morals, but I am going to say this: When people started attacking SG's for Heat spam and such recently, alot of the Star Gladiators came out and said "If you can't beat us, join us and stop QQing" But, it doesn't make it right. I did, however, used to use 1 layer of Heat to aide in leveling my SG when I first started, unaware of any bugs. In the same sense, its all a matter of discretion and how things add up. If a blacksmith dies next to my Homunc in niff (No, just saying, my alchemist is like 65 lol) and his mobs get thrown on me, and people with the thinking that all Alchemists should die happen to find me, it'd be a bad day for me.

Yes, abuse is hard to prove, as is intent, but when I was niffing, I lived with one finger on the print screen button. And for the most part, I was right. Yes, I know, that a player shouldnt be forced to play the whole game with their fingers ready to SS spam enough screenies to make a nice flipbook, but Intent of a alchie shouldn't be hard. However, this hasn't happened to me, so I really can't say how easy or hard it can be to report them.

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Same here, more or less, but without the mobbing and demonstration training. I was mostly doing it for the experience, but I easily got considerably more than what I spent on pots or bottles. One could now argue that this is "pointless and wasteful" with ability to mob huuuuge with homunculus, but then we are in the same point again, namely that it's good for one person at the cost of everyone else who is leveling at the same map.
It is a different situation if they kill them at the pace a WS would.

[Edit: Clarified some points.]

Indeed, the exp is good, but the problem is that people lack the knowledge to make money elsewhere. When I started, I actually did card farming, and I made a decent amount of zeny for not that much work. I joined a guild that was social and talkative, and talked while I killed creamy's, pupa's, and the occasionaly toad spawn for the loots. I must;ve made 3-4 mil a week, and for starting out, thats not bad.

That is the dilema, huh. Its hard for me to discern whats a suitable mob size and whats not. I've tanked some hellishly large mobs on my WS that I thought I couldn't do. Who's to say whats the appropriate size for an Alchemist mob? From what I've seen, they either afk near the entrance and usually gather small mobs away from the leechers, or they mob massively that makes you want to kill someone. There has to be a middle ground, but peoples views on situations will always be "yeah, he's not mobbing much," or "I just hate alchemists, and that mobs too big for my liking" I don't know how the GM's could enforce a system that says "Alchemists can only have x amount of monsters before you can kill them or report them" or " alchemists homuncs now have a flee cap at x, have fun" without alot of careful thought and consideration to all aspects of the problem, not just homuncs. It would take time, most definetly, and people when prolonged with a solution, tend to get angsty and complain more until they force the hands.

I think that the problem lies not in the map or the class, but the ways people have told each other how to make exp and zeny, and so far, its sadly been "niff"
Threads created by Razerman and the like, which show a class how to level outside of the box, help alot,but we need more for other classes so that they can diversify and not be as niff reliant as they are.


Oddly, my tickets get answered on Official in about 1 day or less.


Edited, and I hope I didn't miss anything q-q
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: tizzi on August 16, 2008, 12:36:41 pm
I do agree, it is inconsiderate, but when a handful of people begin mobbing large, it affects all alchemists, even those who mob fairly and kill quickly. By Getting rid of those who abuse a feature, you also get rid of those who used it right and were trying to be considerate of others, and that is what I have issues with.

I believe removing it wasn't being discussed, if I recall right.

I agree, people do not know how to play a class sometimes, and because of several incorrect facts here that "1. Acid Demo kills everything lol, 2. I can mob heavily in niff, its allowed, etc" when in Reality yes,  you could party with someone and just use Demo's to attack, Aid potions to heal, Homonc's to tank to a degree and have other party members be designated killers/supports, but its the issue of time that frusterates many. I used to be frusterated when I started that I wasn't leveling fast enough compared to my peers, and I wish now I had taken my time instead of growing Angsty and the like. People are impatient by nature, and options like mobbing niff to the largest degree appeal to our impatient ways. Its our abilities to think outside the box and level that makes you independent, and I feel that it has been lost.

Exactly. And the problem is that they are impatient at the cost of others.

On a second though, maybe a debufifng of the Homunc might make alchemists try new stuff. Or everyone wouldjust stop playing alchemist, make a smith/priest, and just trans to bio. ITs hard to say, really.

The latter, yes. Because all they really need is the Bio, so they get "Acid Demonstration". Alchemists? Suckers.

Exactly, I agree. My friend was an alchemist, and he used to use plants + his homunc and spell swords, and when it got mobby he sent a Marine Sphere that way. Quite ingenious, but problems like people killing the plants, ksing the homunc while the alchemist afk's frusterate alot of alchemists.

True. People who actually play the class the way it's meant to be played are a wonderful sight. Alas, also a rare one.

Actually, you'd be suprised. Gravity has taken alot of measures to nerf Star Glads as of recently, and we sadly won't be getting those patches for a bit. They've also made mvping a party effort, so wizards and snipers and those bandwagon people you mentioned can't solo.

Oh, I know; but I was referring to the length of time things went unfixed. From what I know, homunculus bugging / heating MVPs went on for a long time on official before it was actually fixed, even though I do not know if the former actually has been fixed.

Indeed, the exp is good, but the problem is that people lack the knowledge to make money elsewhere. When I started, I actually did card farming, and I made a decent amount of zeny for not that much work. I joined a guild that was social and talkative, and talked while I killed creamy's, pupa's, and the occasionaly toad spawn for the loots. I must;ve made 3-4 mil a week, and for starting out, thats not bad.

I would say that Niflheim would generally be a better source of experience and zeny if mobs were killed fast, following the calculations in one of the posts above :)

I think that the problem lies not in the map or the class, but the ways people have told each other how to make exp and zeny, and so far, its sadly been "niff"
Threads created by Razerman and the like, which show a class how to level outside of the box, help alot,but we need more for other classes so that they can diversify and not be as niff reliant as they are.

Correct, I would, however, also say that it lies in the personality and moral of said people - it's "as much as possible for me and who cares about everyone else" instead of "well, it's a crowded map, but maybe we can all get along". I remember a thread where someone asked why he got insulted when he slooooowly walked the entire map, and was crying for sympathy, and when he was told, he was like "watever im doing it anyway lol". 

Yes, abuse is hard to prove, as is intent, but when I was niffing, I lived with one finger on the print screen button. And for the most part, I was right. Yes, I know, that a player shouldnt be forced to play the whole game with their fingers ready to SS spam enough screenies to make a nice flipbook, but Intent of a alchie shouldn't be hard. However, this hasn't happened to me, so I really can't say how easy or hard it can be to report them.

...

That is the dilema, huh. Its hard for me to discern whats a suitable mob size and whats not. I've tanked some hellishly large mobs on my WS that I thought I couldn't do. Who's to say whats the appropriate size for an Alchemist mob? From what I've seen, they either afk near the entrance and usually gather small mobs away from the leechers, or they mob massively that makes you want to kill someone. There has to be a middle ground, but peoples views on situations will always be "yeah, he's not mobbing much," or "I just hate alchemists, and that mobs too big for my liking" I don't know how the GM's could enforce a system that says "Alchemists can only have x amount of monsters before you can kill them or report them" or " alchemists homuncs now have a flee cap at x, have fun" without alot of careful thought and consideration to all aspects of the problem, not just homuncs. It would take time, most definetly, and people when prolonged with a solution, tend to get angsty and complain more until they force the hands.

What I meant was more - you can't really prove that intend. When is it too big? When did he intend for that to happen, and when was it just an accident? It's really something that you cannot prove, or which is really really hard to prove, and still easy to counter ("someone died and I got the mob!" "my party teled, I had to walk to them aaaall through niff").

It's hard to say when a mob becomes "suitable", but everyone apparently can tell if someone is mobbing huge through the entire map. It's not a question of if one more Dullahan is one too many, but if someone acts like the iconic figure described in my first post here (and yes, I have seen people like that, and just in the past few days too), then one starts to ask themselves if that is really necessary and a reasonable thing to do.

Oddly, my tickets get answered on Official in about 1 day or less.

I misunderstood that. I personally do not file tickets on Official because I'd feel it's wrong, seeing that we play on aRO .. on Aegis :P If you know what I mean.
My points were that I have not seen a response from the official servers stating what I stated in the previous posts; and that I have not filed a ticket here to see if GMs here consider it a bug or not, given the modded server and the change of game-play that comes with it. The *totally* correct response here would be what the official GMs think had they used the same spawn-rates and equipments, and facing the same behaviours/situations we are facing here.
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: Nerkel on August 16, 2008, 12:38:47 pm
Please reread my post, I edited a few things for clarification how I meant it.

I'll edit this post with my reply once I'm done :)

;-;

y u do dat..

ah well, Time to edit

Alright, edited. Also, I already got a response from official people o-o

Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: tizzi on August 16, 2008, 12:54:21 pm
Okay. Done posting, I'm currently editing to incorporate responses to your edits

Done posting and editing :)
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: Emerald Sing on August 16, 2008, 01:22:05 pm
Thanks <3 I have a Red Lif, which is adorable too (and which I haven't chosen because I want let my e-pee hang out with mobs that make priests pant "omg that was huge" after healing frantically for a minute, but out of genuine interest in the alchemist class and LUA scripting :3 ).

Yay~

Your Red Lif and my Green Lif can become friends. :3


I saw a 99 bio with a 99 birdy mob in Skellington today. :(

Here she is mobbing:
(http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/6242/screenanthemro745nj2.jpg)

..and there is the ME to drag the mob into with lots of numbers:
The Biochemist as saying that a WS KSed her mob, so she lost a part of it, and I said I think that it might have been a BS but I didn't really see what was happening because I saw a big blob and people stopping or getting out of the way while I myself was just mobbing my own stuff.  Perhaps it was a stun recovery from a hammer fall or her bad mobbing skills (she almost passed me with the mob a time or few times while I was hitting my own mob and I HAD move myself to prevent myself from being reported for KSing. /swt  No way I'm taking chances with "OK" KSing.) I had one line saying something about homonculus mobs...and well...that's the response for you. ._.

(http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/2217/screenanthemro746bm6.jpg)
(http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/8296/screenanthemro747cd6.jpg)
(http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/1589/screenanthemro748pz9.jpg)


AFK Biochemist I found during that same leech session:
Looking at the time stamps, he's been there for a while.  Only thing I see him doing is using potion pitcher which is probably just Mir AI doing the work for him. /hmm
At least he's not inside the gates is all I'll say...

(http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/6397/screenanthemro742dk4.jpg)
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/3470/screenanthemro743us8.jpg)
(http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/9156/screenanthemro744yy7.jpg)

They are just leveling...but... =|
Title: Re: How do Alchemists form such ginormous mobs in Niff?
Post by: Nerkel on August 16, 2008, 01:26:04 pm
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I believe removing it wasn't being discussed, if I recall right.

Ah, right. That must've been me ><

Whenever a suggestion to nerf is made, usually a suggestion to remove said issue is too. I hate to keep on using the same example, but a few suggestions to completely remove the class/ completely remove the entire Heat branch skills were made, and I was trying to be a bit pre-emptive with it this time.

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Exactly. And the problem is that they are impatient at the cost of others.

Indeed, and the problem is, if they can't find one way, they'll move to another. SB Monks w/ DDBS weapons and mob up entire portions of the map, or whatever. Though, Steel body has a limit and a cooldown, its still easily meatable and with some common sense, you can still make larger than life mobs and learn your times on killing those mobs.

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The latter, yes. Because all they really need is the Bio, so they get "Acid Demonstration". Alchemists? Suckers.

Yes, I would equate the Alchemist experience as Pure Playing, IE Anyone can do it within reasonable time of starting, yet its an experience that will test your skills and knowledge a bit more than the other classes, which may equit to "Deluge -> Waterball, Acid Demo, Bowling bash Bowling Bash Bowling Bash, Click and sit back" that other classes seem to have.

Its not a class for the impatient, but it is rewarding.

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True. People who actually play the class the way it's meant to be played are a wonderful sight. Alas, also a rare one.

Well, I like to leave open how a class should be played. Saying that "If you do this and don't do that then you're playing right" Forces people in cookie cutter builds and skills, and leaves no room for exploration or trial and error. I like falling down sometimes, because I learn how to get back up and fall down less.

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Oh, I know; but I was referring to the length of time things went unfixed. From what I know, homunculus bugging / heating MVPs went on for a long time on official before it was actually fixed, even though I do not know if the former actually has been fixed.

Well, things go unfixed until people say something. For a while, Star Glads were kinda not liked on the forums when they QQ'd about people ice walling them in from Stormy Knight, but people didn't really make serious suggestions with sound ways to fix it until recently, and change did happen.

And yes, it did actually, but on korean, heat glitching was fixed in days, from what I was told. So, its just a matter of opinion.

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I would say that Niflheim would generally be a better source of experience and zeny if mobs were killed fast, following the calculations in one of the posts above  :)

Thats true, but as Varis mentioned in the suggestion thread, by putting the two together, some people will attempt to gain both as quickly as possible, IE Homunc, Several SB Champs, etc. I still found ways to use Star Glads to kill fast on the Test Server, and I'm sure that even with a Homunc nerf, if there was one, people would find new ways to abuse whatever they can. Human Ingenuity at its not so greatest.

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Correct, I would, however, also say that it says in the personality and moral of said people - it's "as much as possible for me and who cares about everyone else" instead of "well, it's a crowded map, but maybe we can all get along". I remember a thread where someone asked why he got insulted when he slooooowly walked the entire map, and was crying for sympathy, and when he was told, he was like "watever im doing it anyway lol".

I think personally that people don't know truly the scale of some of the maps till they've seen everyone there. A large number of people enter and leave Skellington in a couple of minutes, let alone 4-5 hours, and its scary what can happen if a lockdown happened on Niff, where less zeny would be made. I do remember a ranters thread where someone made the remark that they could "Mob up entire portions of the map, sit down, and set up a chat sign saying "S> Monsters" and report legally anyone who attacks the monsters."

Its a scary premise.


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What I meant was more - you can't really prove that intend. When is it too big? When did he intend for that to happen, and when was it just an accident? It's really something that you cannot prove, or which is really really hard to prove, and still easy to counter ("someone died and I got the mob!" "my party teled, I had to walk to them aaaall through niff").

It's hard to say when a mob becomes "suitable", but everyone apparently can tell if someone is mobbing huge through the entire map. It's not a question of if one more Dullahan is one too many, but if someone acts like the iconic figure described in my first post here (and yes, I have seen people like that, and just in the past few days too), then one starts to ask themselves if that is really necessary and a reasonable thing to do.

Ah, yes, that makes sense e-e

I've experienced my share of massive niff Alchemist mobs, and I do say that when they cover nearly the whole screen, something is up.


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I misunderstood that. I personally do not file tickets on Official because I'd feel it's wrong, seeing that we play on aRO .. on Aegis Tongue If you know what I mean.
My points were that I have not seen a response from the official servers stating what I stated in the previous posts; and that I have not filed a ticket here to see if GMs here consider it a bug or not, given the modded server and the change of game-play that comes with it. The *totally* correct response here would be what the official GMs think had they used the same spawn-rates and equipments, and facing the same behaviours/situations we are facing here.

Ah, okay.

Well, I play official to relieve some of the boredom when aRO doesn't cut it, and I do say that alot of the glitches here are still somewhat persistant there, so I do occassionally ask if x and y are still around. It also helps with testing builds and the like to diversify.






Also, Emerald.

With the AFK leveling, I'd rather there be an alchemist at the entrance to prevent mobs from hitting the leechers than nothing >>;