Something I always wondered about Twin Fang

[Valash_Vrayr]

^ Why do you humor him? :<

[redhairweasel]

It's not a nerf when the damage and buff is already decent compare to every other SQI if you know how to use it.
If it about compare to dagger sin

How about nerf doppel to 20~25% aspd rather than buffing TF  ?

Easy 190aspd is just so high rate 

[Schrodinger]

If I recall correctly, sqi were originally created to boost woe/pvp, (the staff who originally created sqi used this thought process).  So when TF was originally designed, it was boosted for damage against demi (players) and insect (which, at the time, was emp property, although now it's holy, and we've changed TF to reflect that, although apparently I've forgotten to update the description).

That should answer your questions, past staff boosted the sqi for pvp/woe purposes, not for pvm, even moreso for something like TF, when sinx have so many other options, and a leveling sinx might choose a DDB_ dagger for aoe purposes.

Wasn't many of the current GMs around during its last revision that it got bonuses like the insect damage boost?(its revision was done after the server owner swap).  Having other options isn't a reason to have a 33% damage nerf in PVE on a SQI as all classes have other options.  Why is it left with a 33% damage nerf in PvE?

Let's see... Talis... MAYBE tesla? (although he doesn't do any coding, or deal with item creation), Adrift is currently MIA due to real life... So no, most of the staff was not around.

Like I said before in my second post, which apparently you skimmed over rather poorly, despite quoting it, I need to update the description to match the emperium, since the coding matches the emperium's current type.

Once we finish up extended, and take another look at the current, we'll be doing adjustments as we see fit.

[exDragon]

If I recall correctly, sqi were originally created to boost woe/pvp, (the staff who originally created sqi used this thought process).  So when TF was originally designed, it was boosted for damage against demi (players) and insect (which, at the time, was emp property, although now it's holy, and we've changed TF to reflect that, although apparently I've forgotten to update the description).

That should answer your questions, past staff boosted the sqi for pvp/woe purposes, not for pvm, even moreso for something like TF, when sinx have so many other options, and a leveling sinx might choose a DDB_ dagger for aoe purposes.

Wasn't many of the current GMs around during its last revision that it got bonuses like the insect damage boost?(its revision was done after the server owner swap).  Having other options isn't a reason to have a 33% damage nerf in PVE on a SQI as all classes have other options.  Why is it left with a 33% damage nerf in PvE?

Let's see... Talis... MAYBE tesla? (although he doesn't do any coding, or deal with item creation), Adrift is currently MIA due to real life... So no, most of the staff was not around.

Like I said before in my second post, which apparently you skimmed over rather poorly, despite quoting it, I need to update the description to match the emperium, since the coding matches the emperium's current type.

Once we finish up extended, and take another look at the current, we'll be doing adjustments as we see fit.

I just said insect because at the time of the buff, emperium was insect.  I know you changed it to angel with emperium's change to angel.  That is not what the question is about.  Since a lot of you weren't around then maybe you just never thought on the issue before.  I'm asking why is there even an need to have a 33% damage reduction on twin fang in PvE.  If you don't see a need in doing that then would you considering changing it so it no longer has that 33% damage reduction anymore?

[Schrodinger]

Jesus christ, stop calling it a damage reduction, there's no reduction on the TF, there's buffs to help it in WOE, and or PVP.  I already explained why, and I already explained when it might eventually get tweaked.  In fact, if you look, there's actually a "debuff" on suiken by your math, maybe we should make sure to adjust suiken too!

A LACK of buffs, is not a debuff, if the TF had -33% dmg on everything, THAT is a PvE de-buff, because it is actually removing damage from the TF, not leaving the natural damage and increasing something else.

In fact, your user of PvE is wrong too unless PvE took up a new meaning besides "Player VS Everything".  The only thing the TF doesn't boost is some aspects of PvM.  In fact, it does quite well vs people and some monsters, and with certain gear, even better.

[exDragon]

Jesus christ, stop calling it a damage reduction, there's no reduction on the TF, there's buffs to help it in WOE, and or PVP.  I already explained why, and I already explained when it might eventually get tweaked.  In fact, if you look, there's actually a "debuff" on suiken by your math, maybe we should make sure to adjust suiken too!

A LACK of buffs, is not a debuff, if the TF had -33% dmg on everything, THAT is a PvE de-buff, because it is actually removing damage from the TF, not leaving the natural damage and increasing something else.

In fact, your user of PvE is wrong too unless PvE took up a new meaning besides "Player VS Everything".  The only thing the TF doesn't boost is some aspects of PvM.  In fact, it does quite well vs people and some monsters, and with certain gear, even better.

I'm not sure where you going with suiken but since you can't answer my question until you understand what I'm saying I'll try explaining this part again.


Twin fang damage was balanced to achieve X amount of DPS and Y amount of sonic blow damage.  It stats were specifically made to do so much of each under different gear set ups.  Because of the way it was done( using a +50% damage on demi-humans)  it has a 33% damage reduction to most of the monsters in PvE compared to what it was balanced out to be in terms of its DPS and sonic blow damage in different gear set ups.   Had Suiken used +50% more damage on demi-human instead of +30 strength and its current attack power value then it would have been balanced to achieve the same damage it does now but have 33% less damage on most monsters in PvE.  That means, yes the absent of a certain kind of buff can mean a indirect damage reduction placed on it, you just have think on how certain changes would have led to certain balancing decisions.

[Duplighost]

Jesus christ, stop calling it a damage reduction, there's no reduction on the TF, there's buffs to help it in WOE, and or PVP.  I already explained why, and I already explained when it might eventually get tweaked.  In fact, if you look, there's actually a "debuff" on suiken by your math, maybe we should make sure to adjust suiken too!

A LACK of buffs, is not a debuff, if the TF had -33% dmg on everything, THAT is a PvE de-buff, because it is actually removing damage from the TF, not leaving the natural damage and increasing something else.

In fact, your user of PvE is wrong too unless PvE took up a new meaning besides "Player VS Everything".  The only thing the TF doesn't boost is some aspects of PvM.  In fact, it does quite well vs people and some monsters, and with certain gear, even better.

I'm not sure where you going with suiken but since you can't answer my question until you understand what I'm saying I'll try explaining this part again.


Twin fang damage was balanced to achieve X amount of DPS and Y amount of sonic blow damage.  It stats were specifically made to do so much of each under different gear set ups.  Because of the way it was done( using a +50% damage on demi-humans)  it has a 33% damage reduction to most of the monsters in PvE compared to what it was balanced out to be in terms of its DPS and sonic blow damage in different gear set ups.   Had Suiken used +50% more damage on demi-human instead of +30 strength and its current attack power value then it would have been balanced to achieve the same damage it does now but have 33% less damage on most monsters in PvE.  That means, yes the absent of a certain kind of buff can mean a indirect damage reduction placed on it, you just have think on how certain changes would have led to certain balancing decisions.

TL;DR
THE ABSENCE OF A BUFF IS NOT A DEBUFF (YES IM USING CAPITAL LETTERS CUZ IM RAGING)

Dont like it? Just change jobs !

[Typhoom]

just what? where is this in the description where it says -33% to non demihumans an angels @_@! there is nothing like that

[exDragon]

Here is another way to think of it.

GMs want to balance the twin fang to do 1K dps so they change values until they make it 1K dps.  If they used a +50% demi-human boost then you only hit for 666 in PVE.  If they used strenghth and weapon attack to achieve that 1k DPS then a twin fang carded to kill that monsters would hit for 1K DPS.  Using a DTT instead of DT(race modifier) on a twin fang that doesn't use a 50% demi-human boost would cause 972 DPS in PvE.  A much better PvE DPS then 666.  That is how +50% demi-human boost is a indirect way of saying 33% less damage in PvE.  They are going to set the twin fang to do the same amount of damage no matter how the damage boost are applied in PvP.  By making it demi-human boost instead of something that carries over to PvE you are putting a 33% damage reduction on it in PvE.

Personally I think it should be changed by adding +50% damage boost race modifiers to the other races.  There are other ways if they don't like to do that.

[redhairweasel]

TF vs Anubis = Overpower

[exDragon]

What is the actual reason?

[exDragon]

?

[scarface1975]

SO, instead of just +50% dmg to demi-human you want +50% dmg to all races? 

[exDragon]

Actually I was thinking several possibilities.


1) +50% all races except angel, +25% to angel

2) +30% more damage(TG), +20% to all races, -16% damage on angels(works out to about the same damage on emp)

3) +50% to all races, -16% to angels

4) +30% more damage(TG), +20% to all races, -16% damage to angels in WoE maps only

5) +50% to all races, -16% to angels in WoE maps only

6) +50% all races, +25% angel damage to angels on WoE maps instead of +50%

7) Change weapon attack to 250-270, Remove race modifier and add +30 strength, change crit damage bonus to 8 or 9%, -16% damage to angels (don't have exact number I came up with on me but this is close to same damage)

8 ) Change weapon attack to 250-270, Remove race modifier and add +30 strength, change crit damage bonus to 8 or 9%, -16% damage to angels in WoE maps only

[The Mystic]

Actually I was thinking several possibilities.


1) +50% all races except angel, +25% to angel

2) +30% more damage(TG), +20% to all races, -16% damage on angels(works out to about the same damage on emp)

3) +50% to all races, -16% to angels

4) +30% more damage(TG), +20% to all races, -16% damage to angels in WoE maps only

5) +50% to all races, -16% to angels in WoE maps only

6) +50% all races, +25% angel damage to angels on WoE maps instead of +50%

7) Change weapon attack to 250-270, Remove race modifier and add +30 strength, change crit damage bonus to 8 or 9%, -16% damage to angels (don't have exact number I came up with on me but this is close to same damage)

8 ) Change weapon attack to 250-270, Remove race modifier and add +30 strength, change crit damage bonus to 8 or 9%, -16% damage to angels in WoE maps only

*coughs*code limits*coughs*
Anyways I don't think they would buff TF that much. Anyone of those things is a bit too OP.