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The 'Other' Section => AnesisRO Archive => Archive => General Questions => Topic started by: Razer on July 23, 2010, 11:58:19 pm

Title: Drop Gear Randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: Razer on July 23, 2010, 11:58:19 pm

Ok first I wont disagree that the basis of this question is another game where this system was recently added and suddenly generated immense interest in dead concept of farming. It also kept things fair between lower and higher leveled players.

For Example I found an item with my newbie there which got sold for a lumpsum even by that games standards making me not such a newb anymore lol.


My question is - Is it possible to have items - dropped from monsters to have slightly random attributes ? so no item is the same as other like snow crystals. Old software had an issue of limited IDs but I learnt that is not the case in eA since you also have the enhancement system.

You know for example - Ribbons[1] are dropped by bats.

95% of those ribbons will be regular ribbons , but 5% would be ribbons with random bonus attributes.
Say a random of one to four properties. I had actually suggested this for forged goods a few months back( even before this system was added in the other game - it was as if they read our suggestions lulz)

So A ribbon[1],Poring hat, Helm[1] could have bonus properties like (This is an example)

* DEX+1 ( could be 1~3 of any random stat)
* Chance to get *Random item* while killing monsters
* HP/SP + Random (1-200)

For each gear based on where its placed ( headgear , footgear , armor ,weapon)
You could have different pools of Random properties.

These random properties in rare cases could be so good that the person would spend days or weeks finding one with the correct random stats as an alternative to SQIs. Items with random properties can/can not be enhanced further with the enhancement system.

Because we must face the fact , MVP cards and SQIS mostly kills the variety that RO usually offers.
A random system like this would make the game something like Diablo 2. Grey items = worst , Golden items = Unique.
One of the best reasons for Diablos success was its gear randomization system - It was epic even before LoD patch and runes were added to Diablo 2.

This could/would make people massive farmers. No one would want a plain silk robe [1] - they would try and farm silk robes with favourable random properties before over refining. A HP would prefer to use a saints robe[1] which gives random properties better then a silk robes randoms. Each item regardless could have the option of being good. Its true that higher level items would still have a better chance of being overall stronger but it will make the weaker items equally useful. For example a Cotton shirt[1] with 1~3% damage reflect could outweigh a normal silk robe but not a silk robe with similar properties. It is also true that people will still farm higher items(like meteor plates) in hopes of getting better randoms on them but the lower ranked items would always be more due to the ease in getting them and often attract buyers when sold in the market.


This way every item farmed has the potential of being worth a fortune or worth nothing. People will atleast start farming stuff instead of relying on OVBs for most of their mediocre gear needs. OVBs will give gears without any bonuses so you must farm monsters for ones with bonus.

Oh yes, This is a question plus discussion. This is not a suggestion - I am not asking for this to be added - I am just discussing its feasibility in coding and existing with RO mechanics and its something good to think over. I mean I had left that other game and ever since this was added there - I started farming stuffs lol.

Title: Re: Item IDs and randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: GoddessDigi on July 24, 2010, 12:05:45 am

I like this idea.  And maybe certain elements could even have a higher or lesser chance, so that way if you were wanting a certain element, it could be harder or easier, depending.

Title: Re: Item IDs and randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: DJ Soul on July 24, 2010, 12:09:38 am

I didn't read the whole thing but you could just make a duplicate of a item that drops at a lower rate then the original and have extra stats.

Title: Re: Item IDs and randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: SanRath on July 24, 2010, 12:14:58 am

Quote from: DJ Soul on July 24, 2010, 12:09:38 am

I didn't read the whole thing but you could just make a duplicate of a item that drops at a lower rate then the original and have extra stats.

You didn't get the whole gist then, really; it wasn't just making the items over with some new stats, it was making them rare with stats that varied from other rares of the same type; i.e. Cotton Shirts giving 1~3% reflect or Cotton shirts giving + 1~3 pDodge.  Dropping them at a lower rate would mean adding infinite numbers of drops to each monster.

Title: Re: Item IDs and randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: Razer on July 24, 2010, 12:18:41 am

Quote from: DJ Soul on July 24, 2010, 12:09:38 am

I didn't read the whole thing but you could just make a duplicate of a item that drops at a lower rate then the original and have extra stats.

The randomization is necessary.  Read the whole thing :(


Edit : @Above, Yeah beat me to it.

Title: Re: Drop Gear Randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: kilLua ZoLdick on July 24, 2010, 07:52:56 am

No comment. Because i can't really catch the theories(Not entirely).. :-\

Since u said we can have cotton shirt with random propertices(Eg. 3% reflect dmg)..at least is not OP but an enhancement. I think it will be good for newbies..if they are lucky on getting the drop while lvl-ing..it would be abit easier to lvl with the same exp rate..sounds interesting.. ::)

Title: Re: Drop Gear Randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: Xia Xue on July 24, 2010, 07:54:10 am

if this was in suggestions, i'll fully support this one the random properties mentioned is really helpful especially to newbies on this server they can see different stuff like this, worth farming even if probability is lowered ;P

Title: Re: Drop Gear Randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: Najara on July 24, 2010, 07:59:55 am

Quote

My question is - Is it possible to have items - dropped from monsters to have slightly random attributes ? so no item is the same as other like snow crystals. Old software had an issue of limited IDs but I learnt that is not the case in eA since you also have the enhancement system.

Everything is possible in eAthena. But this is something that requires ALOT of unique IDs.
The GMs will have to make 1000+ unique items, not to forget to modify the drops of every single monster.

Ofcourse, it's an awesome idea. But I'm pretty sure it is way too much work to be done.

Title: Re: Drop Gear Randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: kilLua ZoLdick on July 24, 2010, 08:02:34 am

Enhancements costs hard work  :-X

May be this idea can be consider after Gms finish the things should be done now..

Title: Re: Drop Gear Randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: Razer on July 24, 2010, 08:19:43 am

I need input from Aozora.

Title: Re: Drop Gear Randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: Aozora on July 24, 2010, 09:49:04 am

Quote from: Razer on July 24, 2010, 08:19:43 am

I need input from Aozora.

I lol'd

Quote

My question is - Is it possible to have items - dropped from monsters to have slightly random attributes ? so no item is the same as other like snow crystals. Old software had an issue of limited IDs but I learnt that is not the case in eA since you also have the enhancement system.

Well technically you could do it. The first time you put an item on it calls a function which ties several variables on your character. Then after that's done it uses those variables to determine the bonuses you get from it. Though that's a rather dumb system since it wouldn't actually determine the attributes when the item drops but rather when you put it on for the first time. Option would be to create a massive source mod which allows you tie variables to items. But anyways, there is no real way to dynamically determine attributes at the time the item appears, the attributes will always be what they are in the item script. The only sensible way to do this would be to write some simple PHP script to automatically produce bunch of random items with randomized attributes and add them in the DB. Then just use a command to give on random item from that list to the player.

Title: Re: Drop Gear Randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: Razer on July 24, 2010, 10:00:20 am

I see so randomly creating variables at run time are not possible - it only reads the script. I suppose its too tedious to implement then. Guess its not doable unless someone does PHP scripting. Dayumn that other game is totally addicting because of this one mod. I wouldnt have minded if aRO could have it.

Whats with the Lol btw ? O-o You know well about eA hence I said that.

Title: Re: Drop Gear Randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: Aozora on July 24, 2010, 10:20:51 am

Quote from: Razer on July 24, 2010, 10:00:20 am

I see so randomly creating variables at run time are not possible - it only reads the script. I suppose its too tedious to implement then. Guess its not doable unless someone does PHP scripting. Dayumn that other game is totally addicting because of this one mod. I wouldnt have minded if aRO could have it.

Whats with the Lol btw ? O-o You know well about eA hence I said that.

Well creating randomized variables and doing random crap based on them is possible sure. However the problem is that you need to tie a variable to something, player, NPC or the server. To do something like this you'd need the ability to tie variables to items themselves.

Title: Re: Drop Gear Randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: Razer on July 24, 2010, 11:08:12 am

I suppose that may not be possible in RO from the way you sound but yes whenever I coded entities in a game project - the entities or items in layman's term would be class based objects with lot of variables - some used while some un-used. I think this is a norm in most games. I fairly suppose in RO the item is mainly a descriptor entry in the database which has been coded by Gravity only to carry A] upgrades and card ids and B] Weight, Hardcoded stats.

What I meant to ask was - is it possible to add a C] A variable that is different for every item. You cannot hard code very random combination like this - possibilities would run into several millions - It has to be managed by dynamic variables attached with items that are set differently every time an item is created.( The snowflake principle)

How does the the enhancement system work ? Is every possible combination hard coded ?

Is it possible to simulate a custom enhancement system when an item drops of a monster? The answer to this lies in the answer of the previous question.

If such a system can be created it can be beneficial to server revenues too. The staff can add an option to players to get items with bonus stats for extra fee per item or even have items that re randomize an items present bonus stats for the better or worse. Both of these would be heavily used by players to get the best possible items. In short we have an Ad based item that people would buy constantly - much more then BBs or anything else.

Title: Re: Drop Gear Randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: Aozora on July 24, 2010, 12:21:05 pm

Quote

It has to be managed by dynamic variables attached with items that are set differently every time an item is created.( The snowflake principle)

That's the problem here. This wouldn't be hard if you could tie variables into items. However in eA you cannot do that. You can tie variables to Characters, accounts, NPC's or a server wide variable.
It is possible to create a massive source mod to tie variables to items, however I doubt the GM's will do that. You can simulate randomized items by creating tons of items in the database. It isn't ajhrd really since i'm pretty sure at least one of the GM's know how to make a simple script to print the SQL queries for the items.

Other than that the only randomized thing you'll get is either character or account bound. i.e person on the account puts said item on, item sets randomized stats. But whenever someone else from another account uses the item it'll set different stats for them. Also item descriptions are hardcoded, you can't add variables to them or create them dynamically.

Title: Re: Drop Gear Randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: Razer on July 24, 2010, 12:31:16 pm

Oh well it was a good try. Any idea how the enhancement system works - Does it mean the item database carries entries for all possible creations ?

Title: Re: Drop Gear Randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: Aozora on July 24, 2010, 01:14:07 pm

Quote from: Razer on July 24, 2010, 12:31:16 pm

Oh well it was a good try. Any idea how the enhancement system works - Does it mean the item database carries entries for all possible creations ?

Enhancment system?
Oh right, it basically utilizes the card slots to insert special items there. Though now that I think about it.....ou could possibly emulate this by using a system similar to the enhancement system. However the item would have to be created into your inventory rather than actually "dropped". You'd have to create bunch of cards with different attributed on them, then randomly pick cards and place them in the slots to give attributes to the item. If you give the item 0 slots then it won't be unslottable and so on.

Title: Re: Drop Gear Randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: Razer on July 24, 2010, 01:28:54 pm

Well thats what I said - you make a system similar to the enhancement system that plays everytime a monster drops a special gear but I think the concept of slots may not work well. That would theoretically mean a Blade[4] has more then 4 slots of which some get used up in the emulation. That would mean all objects to have Ghost slots of somekind O_o ?
Players cant access these slots but the emulation system can. Most of the times it will place blank cards in these slots not imparting any property but the other times it can slot 1~3 property cards in the Ghost slots. Whenever the player picks the item - a script runs summoning 3 random property cards to go into the Ghost Slots from a pool. These properties would not add any suffixes or prefixes but a person can tell the item has the bonus stats via an improvised descriptor.

I suppose there is no easy way to this unless Gravity changes the system or eA changes as a whole - As you say a source mod which seems unlikely. Oh well its not feasible for now then.

Title: Re: Drop Gear Randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: Aozora on July 24, 2010, 03:58:14 pm

Quote

Well thats what I said - you make a system similar to the enhancement system that plays everytime a monster drops a special gear but I think the concept of slots may not work well. That would theoretically mean a Blade[4] has more then 4 slots of which some get used up in the emulation. That would mean all objects to have Ghost slots of somekind O_o ?

Currently the amount of slots is capped to 4 in source. That's the default setting and the client can only display 4 slots. You can actually have more than 4 slots but the client can't display them, then by modifying few script commands you should be able to make stuff in these slots. It should be possible to kinda restrict slot usage. Since when using cards they go to the first available slot but with a script command you can define what goes where. I.e you could leave the 4 primary slots open and add random attributes to lsots after that. And yes, this would mean they would have "ghost" slots in a way sicne you couldn't see them. But to players they wouldn't even appear as slots, their gears would simply have randomized attributes.

Quote

Players cant access these slots but the emulation system can. Most of the times it will place blank cards in these slots not imparting any property but the other times it can slot 1~3 property cards in the Ghost slots. Whenever the player picks the item - a script runs summoning 3 random property cards to go into the Ghost Slots from a pool. These properties would not add any suffixes or prefixes but a person can tell the item has the bonus stats via an improvised descriptor.

You can't make these items on the floor though. They would have to be spawned directly to players inventory, or alternatively use a dummy item which deletes itself and replaces with the randomized item when put on for the first time. unless of course you add a source mod from eA boards, I think there's something like OnPCPickItemEvent which runs every time you pick an item. Descriptions on the other hand would be rather wonky since they cannot be created dynamically, every single item description is handwritten in the clientfiles.

However the problem is, I have absolutely no idea how the server would run with 4+ slots or if it'd create other problems with something like unslotting.

Title: Re: Drop Gear Randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: Razer on July 24, 2010, 08:39:54 pm

Yea, I am considering the idea infeasible for now.

Title: Re: Drop Gear Randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: Talis on July 24, 2010, 09:36:56 pm

Also, just to add, RO in general is very finnicky with messing with items. The Client expect the item string in a very specific manner. It's essentially impossible to attach any persistent information to a item that does not fill up a existing slot.

However, there would be a actually feasible way to do this ( not saying that we will but .. )

One variable that gets always passed along with the item that is barely used at all is .. the Identified-switch. You could probably increase the max value of the identified value both within eA and the database into essentially any way you want, and then simply use those to store the enchantment status.

Additionally, it would still be possible to have them unidentified.

You could just create duplicate entries for every enchantment and have a modulo 2 run over it. If its even - its unids , if its odd its IDs.

As a example:
identified 0 - Not ID'd, No Effect.
identified 1 - ID'd, No Effect.
identified 2 - Not ID'd, STR +1.
identified 3 - ID'd, STR+1.

etc. Magnifier would only have to do: if identified = even , set identified +1;

I'm still not convinced whether it would be worth the efford, but using the system I outlined it should be pretty feasible and easy even.

The only problem would be how the client would react to a untypical ID'd value. What would likely happen is actually that the client would "loose" the custom ID value when picking it up. But with some hacking you might be able to have the client keep it.. hm. Ah well.

Title: Re: Drop Gear Randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: Razer on July 24, 2010, 11:59:45 pm

Well when I asked this I was expecting it was possible to assign some variables to item class. ( like in any other environment you usually have a class module for objects with used/unused values and always room to declare more)
I dont know anything about eAs coding so I had to make this thread to know. Now if it was possible to have some new variables for items - they could store random values when the player picks the item up. Now lets say by my example an item can have 1 or more random properties lets say upto 3. And each property is a separate condition in a pool so 1-3 % P.D would mean 3 conditions 1,2,3 unless you nest in another randomize. That way lets say each pool has 30 properties with blank property being the most probable one making it an exceptionally hard chance to get 3 properties in one go.
So you have potentially 30X30X30 combos for each gear area (helm/weapon/Garment)

Talis , the PM that I sent you contains info that I do not want to post here. That game has reported that the re randomize option that they have (they sell it for 5$ worth) has become a hot seller all of a sudden.  So yes if we can find an easy way to do this everyone and I do mean everyone will benefit from it. I am looking at this option to potentially create alternates to MVP cards and SQIs if the random combo of properties is good - this would keep people on an eternal hunt since getting a perfect item would be near impossible to get.
Is there no other value in an item that can be used other then identified-switch  ? Is it impossible to add new variable to items ?

Title: Re: Drop Gear Randomization - eA Experts read this
Post by: Talis on July 25, 2010, 09:25:51 am

Quote from: Razer on July 24, 2010, 11:59:45 pm

Well when I asked this I was expecting it was possible to assign some variables to item class. ( like in any other environment you usually have a class module for objects with used/unused values and always room to declare more)
I dont know anything about eAs coding so I had to make this thread to know. Now if it was possible to have some new variables for items - they could store random values when the player picks the item up. Now lets say by my example an item can have 1 or more random properties lets say upto 3. And each property is a separate condition in a pool so 1-3 % P.D would mean 3 conditions 1,2,3 unless you nest in another randomize. That way lets say each pool has 30 properties with blank property being the most probable one making it an exceptionally hard chance to get 3 properties in one go.
So you have potentially 30X30X30 combos for each gear area (helm/weapon/Garment)

Talis , the PM that I sent you contains info that I do not want to post here. That game has reported that the re randomize option that they have (they sell it for 5$ worth) has become a hot seller all of a sudden.  So yes if we can find an easy way to do this everyone and I do mean everyone will benefit from it. I am looking at this option to potentially create alternates to MVP cards and SQIs if the random combo of properties is good - this would keep people on an eternal hunt since getting a perfect item would be near impossible to get.
Is there no other value in an item that can be used other then identified-switch  ? Is it impossible to add new variable to items ?

As far as adding new variables go, only really ghost-card-slots. The problem with those is that the game will not identify or acknowledge them at all. Which essentially means that ingame you would not know at all what kind of item you have. This also means that when you drop the item, it will might loose the card4+ properties. Just adding some (new) persistent information to a item is extremely tough, if not impossible.