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Print Page - Something I always wondered about Twin Fang

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The 'Other' Section => AnesisRO Archive => Archive => General Questions => Topic started by: exDragon on September 08, 2010, 07:03:52 pm

Title: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: exDragon on September 08, 2010, 07:03:52 pm
Why does it have a 33% damage nerf in PvE.  That's like most of the monster in PvE have a thara frog on when hit by a twin fang.
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: Schrodinger on September 08, 2010, 09:37:53 pm
The hell are you talking about?

Fashioned with deadly fangs of a demon lord, these blades silence their target before their wielder slips effortlessly into the shadows.
Damage on Demi-Human Monsters + 50%, Damage on Insect Monsters + 25%
Critical Damage + 12%
AGI + 15, DEX + 16, DEF + 3
[8+ Valkyrie Helm]
+5% Resistance to Fire and Water
+15% Resistance to Earth and Wind
[+ Mysteltainn Card]
+10% MHP, +50% Immunity to Stun, +15% Damage to Ghost Property

Where's this magical  33% damage nerf in PvE
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: Bajorgas on September 08, 2010, 09:39:40 pm
Because he's going around shitting stupid numbers out.

150% damage on demihuman = 100% on non demihuman

100% on non demihuman = 33% less than on demihuman
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: GreaterPepe on September 09, 2010, 01:47:50 am
He's just complaining about the 50% bonus damage to Demihuman BUFF that's on TF.
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: Kane on September 09, 2010, 02:22:58 am
Infiltrator ingredient!!!
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: juggernaut2000 on September 09, 2010, 09:43:53 am
*cough* TF needs  a pvm buff *cough*
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: Valash_Vrayr on September 09, 2010, 12:06:48 pm
The hell are you talking about?

^ Love that guy.
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: exDragon on September 09, 2010, 01:02:54 pm
It doesn't have to say -33% damage in PvE on the SQI description for it to be there.  Damage of the twin fang was tweaked with the 50% demi human modifier in mind. If the racial modifiers were not there then other buffs would have been used to buff its damage but since it is there then those other buffs couldn't be placed on due to balance reasons.    My question was simply, why does it have this damage nerf in PvE?


Infiltrator ingredient!!!

That explains more how it got started.  It does not explain why it was left like that.
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: Schrodinger on September 09, 2010, 01:44:50 pm
If I recall correctly, sqi were originally created to boost woe/pvp, (the staff who originally created sqi used this thought process).  So when TF was originally designed, it was boosted for damage against demi (players) and insect (which, at the time, was emp property, although now it's holy, and we've changed TF to reflect that, although apparently I've forgotten to update the description).

That should answer your questions, past staff boosted the sqi for pvp/woe purposes, not for pvm, even moreso for something like TF, when sinx have so many other options, and a leveling sinx might choose a DDB_ dagger for aoe purposes.
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: Valash_Vrayr on September 09, 2010, 03:12:15 pm
I was never a fan of that out dated mentality. End game weapons in theory from personal opinion only, should enhance game play within a balanced range between all areas of the game. I can't stand the fact that even still people believe it should be for PvP/WoE only. More than half the server doesn't even participate in those functions I bet, so it doesn't really seem justifiable to leave those that PvM in the dark.
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: SwiftStrike on September 09, 2010, 06:45:49 pm
So when TF was originally designed, it was boosted for damage against demi (players) and insect (which, at the time, was emp property, although now it's holy, and we've changed TF to reflect that, although apparently I've forgotten to update the description).
:o TF gives boost to holy property now? or is it angel?

in most cases, every other class sqi besides the TF is still better than regular class weapons outside of PvP, so i thought they were just...items that were worth it for everything

gah fixing spaces
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: redhairweasel on September 09, 2010, 10:43:12 pm
First of all, well endowed Crit+DTT TF is almost as good as DDT nib and DBS mjol even without Kaho. It might lack damage compare to those 2 but flee cover that part.

in most cases, every other class sqi besides the TF is still better than regular class weapons outside of PvP, so i thought they were just...items that were worth it for everything

gah fixing spaces

It's still better than regular Katar.
I know pwn tested there's not much different comparing with s.jur but no one knows how concrete was that test because calc always shows TF(infil in calc) DPS is higher than pwn's test since you still have to factor the dex/agi buff and DTTT will suffer so much with stat allocation while it cost almost half as DTT TF. And now you pay the other half for the extra damage, 50% stun immune, some element reduction and the 50% demi boost. Sounds good right?
/inb4mobsterandthepaperischeaperduh
Faggot, sinx still have SB and GT.

Now let's compare to dagger since everyone HERE blinded with SinX=ctrl+click class.
It's always a fact that no matter what Gravity comes up with new Katar, the ctrl+click crit damage won't ever surpass DoubleDagger(DD) ctrl+click since they have slot, element and special effect weapon(IP,CK) advantage. You just can't compare DD with crit Katar because on every other server, the best exp comes from SB/GT while most sin here pretty clueless other than ctrl+click. Just live with the fact that crit Katar will never better than ctrl+click DD as the best Katar advantage is to access Katar only skill. Sure you can say "I WAN DAGGEH AS SQI INSTEED!!" but how do you expect the buff will come when DDP/DDTP is alrdy at top reasonable weapon? Fcking high rate damage now?

And the saddest part is aRO's Doppel is so freaking overpower that it neglect DD aspd penalty making the damage gap even further than the alredy decent damage from TF. How about nerf doppel to 20~25% aspd rather than buffing TF  ::)?
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: Valash_Vrayr on September 10, 2010, 08:14:50 am
Your points would come across so much smoother if you typed properly.   :-X
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: exDragon on September 11, 2010, 08:10:32 pm
If I recall correctly, sqi were originally created to boost woe/pvp, (the staff who originally created sqi used this thought process).  So when TF was originally designed, it was boosted for damage against demi (players) and insect (which, at the time, was emp property, although now it's holy, and we've changed TF to reflect that, although apparently I've forgotten to update the description).

That should answer your questions, past staff boosted the sqi for pvp/woe purposes, not for pvm, even moreso for something like TF, when sinx have so many other options, and a leveling sinx might choose a DDB_ dagger for aoe purposes.


Wasn't many of the current GMs around during its last revision that it got bonuses like the insect damage boost?(its revision was done after the server owner swap).  Having other options isn't a reason to have a 33% damage nerf in PVE on a SQI as all classes have other options.  Why is it left with a 33% damage nerf in PvE?
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: Haine on September 11, 2010, 08:18:58 pm
Common sense would tell you that an obvious emperium boost would be altered to reflect the current emperium's race, regardless of the generation of GM and their thoughts on what an SQI should be focused towards.
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: Valash_Vrayr on September 11, 2010, 08:54:58 pm
^ Why do you humor him? :<
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: redhairweasel on September 11, 2010, 09:07:47 pm
It's not a nerf when the damage and buff is already decent compare to every other SQI if you know how to use it.
If it about compare to dagger sin
How about nerf doppel to 20~25% aspd rather than buffing TF  ::)?
Easy 190aspd is just so high rate  :P
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: Schrodinger on September 12, 2010, 12:11:10 am
If I recall correctly, sqi were originally created to boost woe/pvp, (the staff who originally created sqi used this thought process).  So when TF was originally designed, it was boosted for damage against demi (players) and insect (which, at the time, was emp property, although now it's holy, and we've changed TF to reflect that, although apparently I've forgotten to update the description).

That should answer your questions, past staff boosted the sqi for pvp/woe purposes, not for pvm, even moreso for something like TF, when sinx have so many other options, and a leveling sinx might choose a DDB_ dagger for aoe purposes.


Wasn't many of the current GMs around during its last revision that it got bonuses like the insect damage boost?(its revision was done after the server owner swap).  Having other options isn't a reason to have a 33% damage nerf in PVE on a SQI as all classes have other options.  Why is it left with a 33% damage nerf in PvE?

Let's see... Talis... MAYBE tesla? (although he doesn't do any coding, or deal with item creation), Adrift is currently MIA due to real life... So no, most of the staff was not around.

Like I said before in my second post, which apparently you skimmed over rather poorly, despite quoting it, I need to update the description to match the emperium, since the coding matches the emperium's current type.

Once we finish up extended, and take another look at the current, we'll be doing adjustments as we see fit.
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: exDragon on September 13, 2010, 10:54:27 am
If I recall correctly, sqi were originally created to boost woe/pvp, (the staff who originally created sqi used this thought process).  So when TF was originally designed, it was boosted for damage against demi (players) and insect (which, at the time, was emp property, although now it's holy, and we've changed TF to reflect that, although apparently I've forgotten to update the description).

That should answer your questions, past staff boosted the sqi for pvp/woe purposes, not for pvm, even moreso for something like TF, when sinx have so many other options, and a leveling sinx might choose a DDB_ dagger for aoe purposes.


Wasn't many of the current GMs around during its last revision that it got bonuses like the insect damage boost?(its revision was done after the server owner swap).  Having other options isn't a reason to have a 33% damage nerf in PVE on a SQI as all classes have other options.  Why is it left with a 33% damage nerf in PvE?

Let's see... Talis... MAYBE tesla? (although he doesn't do any coding, or deal with item creation), Adrift is currently MIA due to real life... So no, most of the staff was not around.

Like I said before in my second post, which apparently you skimmed over rather poorly, despite quoting it, I need to update the description to match the emperium, since the coding matches the emperium's current type.

Once we finish up extended, and take another look at the current, we'll be doing adjustments as we see fit.

I just said insect because at the time of the buff, emperium was insect.  I know you changed it to angel with emperium's change to angel.  That is not what the question is about.  Since a lot of you weren't around then maybe you just never thought on the issue before.  I'm asking why is there even an need to have a 33% damage reduction on twin fang in PvE.  If you don't see a need in doing that then would you considering changing it so it no longer has that 33% damage reduction anymore?
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: Schrodinger on September 13, 2010, 02:01:38 pm
Jesus christ, stop calling it a damage reduction, there's no reduction on the TF, there's buffs to help it in WOE, and or PVP.  I already explained why, and I already explained when it might eventually get tweaked.  In fact, if you look, there's actually a "debuff" on suiken by your math, maybe we should make sure to adjust suiken too!

A LACK of buffs, is not a debuff, if the TF had -33% dmg on everything, THAT is a PvE de-buff, because it is actually removing damage from the TF, not leaving the natural damage and increasing something else.

In fact, your user of PvE is wrong too unless PvE took up a new meaning besides "Player VS Everything".  The only thing the TF doesn't boost is some aspects of PvM.  In fact, it does quite well vs people and some monsters, and with certain gear, even better.
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: exDragon on September 13, 2010, 03:10:06 pm
Jesus christ, stop calling it a damage reduction, there's no reduction on the TF, there's buffs to help it in WOE, and or PVP.  I already explained why, and I already explained when it might eventually get tweaked.  In fact, if you look, there's actually a "debuff" on suiken by your math, maybe we should make sure to adjust suiken too!

A LACK of buffs, is not a debuff, if the TF had -33% dmg on everything, THAT is a PvE de-buff, because it is actually removing damage from the TF, not leaving the natural damage and increasing something else.

In fact, your user of PvE is wrong too unless PvE took up a new meaning besides "Player VS Everything".  The only thing the TF doesn't boost is some aspects of PvM.  In fact, it does quite well vs people and some monsters, and with certain gear, even better.

I'm not sure where you going with suiken but since you can't answer my question until you understand what I'm saying I'll try explaining this part again.


Twin fang damage was balanced to achieve X amount of DPS and Y amount of sonic blow damage.  It stats were specifically made to do so much of each under different gear set ups.  Because of the way it was done( using a +50% damage on demi-humans)  it has a 33% damage reduction to most of the monsters in PvE compared to what it was balanced out to be in terms of its DPS and sonic blow damage in different gear set ups.   Had Suiken used +50% more damage on demi-human instead of +30 strength and its current attack power value then it would have been balanced to achieve the same damage it does now but have 33% less damage on most monsters in PvE.  That means, yes the absent of a certain kind of buff can mean a indirect damage reduction placed on it, you just have think on how certain changes would have led to certain balancing decisions.
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: Duplighost on September 13, 2010, 08:17:55 pm
Jesus christ, stop calling it a damage reduction, there's no reduction on the TF, there's buffs to help it in WOE, and or PVP.  I already explained why, and I already explained when it might eventually get tweaked.  In fact, if you look, there's actually a "debuff" on suiken by your math, maybe we should make sure to adjust suiken too!

A LACK of buffs, is not a debuff, if the TF had -33% dmg on everything, THAT is a PvE de-buff, because it is actually removing damage from the TF, not leaving the natural damage and increasing something else.

In fact, your user of PvE is wrong too unless PvE took up a new meaning besides "Player VS Everything".  The only thing the TF doesn't boost is some aspects of PvM.  In fact, it does quite well vs people and some monsters, and with certain gear, even better.

I'm not sure where you going with suiken but since you can't answer my question until you understand what I'm saying I'll try explaining this part again.


Twin fang damage was balanced to achieve X amount of DPS and Y amount of sonic blow damage.  It stats were specifically made to do so much of each under different gear set ups.  Because of the way it was done( using a +50% damage on demi-humans)  it has a 33% damage reduction to most of the monsters in PvE compared to what it was balanced out to be in terms of its DPS and sonic blow damage in different gear set ups.   Had Suiken used +50% more damage on demi-human instead of +30 strength and its current attack power value then it would have been balanced to achieve the same damage it does now but have 33% less damage on most monsters in PvE.  That means, yes the absent of a certain kind of buff can mean a indirect damage reduction placed on it, you just have think on how certain changes would have led to certain balancing decisions.

TL;DR
THE ABSENCE OF A BUFF IS NOT A DEBUFF (YES IM USING CAPITAL LETTERS CUZ IM RAGING)

Dont like it? Just change jobs :D!
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: Typhoom on September 13, 2010, 08:43:23 pm
just what? where is this in the description where it says -33% to non demihumans an angels @_@! there is nothing like that
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: exDragon on September 18, 2010, 11:43:36 am
Here is another way to think of it.

GMs want to balance the twin fang to do 1K dps so they change values until they make it 1K dps.  If they used a +50% demi-human boost then you only hit for 666 in PVE.  If they used strenghth and weapon attack to achieve that 1k DPS then a twin fang carded to kill that monsters would hit for 1K DPS.  Using a DTT instead of DT(race modifier) on a twin fang that doesn't use a 50% demi-human boost would cause 972 DPS in PvE.  A much better PvE DPS then 666.  That is how +50% demi-human boost is a indirect way of saying 33% less damage in PvE.  They are going to set the twin fang to do the same amount of damage no matter how the damage boost are applied in PvP.  By making it demi-human boost instead of something that carries over to PvE you are putting a 33% damage reduction on it in PvE.

Personally I think it should be changed by adding +50% damage boost race modifiers to the other races.  There are other ways if they don't like to do that.
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: redhairweasel on September 18, 2010, 01:50:19 pm
TF vs Anubis = Overpower
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: exDragon on September 23, 2010, 09:34:42 am
What is the actual reason?
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: exDragon on September 26, 2010, 04:34:09 pm
?
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: scarface1975 on September 28, 2010, 08:47:04 am
SO, instead of just +50% dmg to demi-human you want +50% dmg to all races?  :o
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: exDragon on September 28, 2010, 09:34:45 am
Actually I was thinking several possibilities.


1) +50% all races except angel, +25% to angel

2) +30% more damage(TG), +20% to all races, -16% damage on angels(works out to about the same damage on emp)

3) +50% to all races, -16% to angels

4) +30% more damage(TG), +20% to all races, -16% damage to angels in WoE maps only

5) +50% to all races, -16% to angels in WoE maps only

6) +50% all races, +25% angel damage to angels on WoE maps instead of +50%

7) Change weapon attack to 250-270, Remove race modifier and add +30 strength, change crit damage bonus to 8 or 9%, -16% damage to angels (don't have exact number I came up with on me but this is close to same damage)

8 ) Change weapon attack to 250-270, Remove race modifier and add +30 strength, change crit damage bonus to 8 or 9%, -16% damage to angels in WoE maps only
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: The Mystic on September 28, 2010, 02:58:16 pm
Actually I was thinking several possibilities.


1) +50% all races except angel, +25% to angel

2) +30% more damage(TG), +20% to all races, -16% damage on angels(works out to about the same damage on emp)

3) +50% to all races, -16% to angels

4) +30% more damage(TG), +20% to all races, -16% damage to angels in WoE maps only

5) +50% to all races, -16% to angels in WoE maps only

6) +50% all races, +25% angel damage to angels on WoE maps instead of +50%

7) Change weapon attack to 250-270, Remove race modifier and add +30 strength, change crit damage bonus to 8 or 9%, -16% damage to angels (don't have exact number I came up with on me but this is close to same damage)

8 ) Change weapon attack to 250-270, Remove race modifier and add +30 strength, change crit damage bonus to 8 or 9%, -16% damage to angels in WoE maps only
*coughs*code limits*coughs*
Anyways I don't think they would buff TF that much. Anyone of those things is a bit too OP.
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: exDragon on September 29, 2010, 02:24:32 pm
Doing your PvP damage out of PvP is not OP and there is no problem with code limitation.
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: The Mystic on September 29, 2010, 04:08:11 pm
Doing your PvP damage out of PvP is not OP and there is no problem with code limitation.
riiight..
Title: Re: Something I always wondered about Twin Fang
Post by: exDragon on September 30, 2010, 01:48:13 pm
Doing your PvP damage out of PvP is not OP and there is no problem with code limitation.
riiight..

Every other class does there PvP damage in PvE with the exception of a wizards melee swings being weaker because they don't have defense piercing of other races.  Wizards do have their spells which do have the same PvP and PvE damage that they can use in PvE though.